kurgan's Coach/Film room

[MOSteelers56]

2 hours ago, jebrick said:

Brook's cover bothered me for the start.  He is another Markus Allen.  Not sure why they like those types of players.

I think Brooks is kind of similar to Hilton. I think maybe he’s a cross between Allen and Hilton. I think he’s going to be able to cover a little more than Allen. But your point is still rock solid, is Gerald Holliman the last cover type Safety we drafted? I think we literally can’t scout secondary players. I hope Layne and Edmunds prove that wrong. 

[turtle28]

@kurgan Thanks for those write ups. I agree with everything you wrote.

I especially agree with your take on Brooks. He’s kind of a guy w/o a position but he is a solid run defender for a guy his size and will be a heck of special teams player. I wish they had kept Mark Barron TBH, I think his loss will hurt them, but I think they let him go hoping that Bush can take the next step in pass coverage in year two, TBD I guess.

I really hope they can develop Brooks into a Barron type dime LB, but I don’t see him being great in that role as a rookie especially bc of COVID-19 and how that is going to stall young player development and cut down on practice time and offseason camps/OTAs and probably preseason too. All that’s TBD, but it doesn’t help with a player like Brooks who really needs to improve in one area of the game if he wants to see any time on D this year.

[kurgan]

20 hours ago, turtle28 said:

@kurgan Thanks for those write ups. I agree with everything you wrote.

I especially agree with your take on Brooks. He’s kind of a guy w/o a position but he is a solid run defender for a guy his size and will be a heck of special teams player. I wish they had kept Mark Barron TBH, I think his loss will hurt them, but I think they let him go hoping that Bush can take the next step in pass coverage in year two, TBD I guess.

I really hope they can develop Brooks into a Barron type dime LB, but I don’t see him being great in that role as a rookie especially bc of COVID-19 and how that is going to stall young player development and cut down on practice time and offseason camps/OTAs and probably preseason too. All that’s TBD, but it doesn’t help with a player like Brooks who really needs to improve in one area of the game if he wants to see any time on D this year.

I agree.. to expect him to be more than a ST at this point is foolish, especially in 2020.  I really think that he, UG3 and Marcus Allen will be competing for Barron snaps in 2021, but that job is UG3's right now.  It is scary, but unless a vet is signed, he is carrying the weight.

I am just not sure how much Brooks can improve on the area he is lacking in... athleticism.  He is maxed out and is what he is at this point.  He is not going to get faster, can't really add bulk to his frame, and I am sure that COD and agility has been worked on in HS and college.  He might be what he is, and I am not sure what that is.  Best case, for me, is that his instincts and coverage reps get better and he can be a nickel backer,  but IDK.

On 5/11/2020 at 1:29 PM, MOSteelers56 said:

I think Brooks is kind of similar to Hilton. I think maybe he’s a cross between Allen and Hilton. I think he’s going to be able to cover a little more than Allen. But your point is still rock solid, is Gerald Holliman the last cover type Safety we drafted? I think we literally can’t scout secondary players. I hope Layne and Edmunds prove that wrong. 

I don't think he can cover as well as Hilton.  Sure, he can line up over a slot WR, but he can't really cover him for more than 5-7 yards.  I think he will cover better than Allen, but that is not a high bar to clear.

Yeck..... Holliman..... I guess so.  UDFA was Marcus Golden... yea, not real keen on the DB scouting department.

[MOSteelers56]

2 hours ago, kurgan said:

I don't think he can cover as well as Hilton.  Sure, he can line up over a slot WR, but he can't really cover him for more than 5-7 yards.  I think he will cover better than Allen, but that is not a high bar to clear.

I don’t think Hilton is much better in coverage. I’m not sure I’d trust him in coverage more than 7 yards down the field.

[MOSteelers56]

Could I put in another request? I’d really like to see an in depth look at Terrell Edmunds. Maybe things he’s improved on, if any, things he has regressed on, stayed consistent, things to work on. Your take on  his future. Just spitballing.

[turtle28]

On 5/11/2020 at 1:29 PM, MOSteelers56 said:

I think Brooks is kind of similar to Hilton. I think maybe he’s a cross between Allen and Hilton. I think he’s going to be able to cover a little more than Allen. But your point is still rock solid, is Gerald Holliman the last cover type Safety we drafted? I think we literally can’t scout secondary players. I hope Layne and Edmunds prove that wrong. 

Not sure if it’s that they can’t scout secondary players well or that they aren’t investing high draft picks on FS’s. I’d say it’s more they aren’t investing on a FS prospect high in the draft. What’s the last FS prospect the Steelers spent a 1st day or 2nd day pick on?

I guess Sean Davis and he was starting to develop but then last year he got hurt. Then, they traded a 1st for Fitzpatrick which is equal to their 2020 first round pick. That seems like good scouting in that decision to me as Fitzpatrick has been a straight up steal of a FS acquisition for the Steelers.

Edited May 27, 2020 by turtle28

[kurgan]

1 hour ago, MOSteelers56 said:

Could I put in another request? I’d really like to see an in depth look at Terrell Edmunds. Maybe things he’s improved on, if any, things he has regressed on, stayed consistent, things to work on. Your take on  his future. Just spitballing.

You got it... I'll put it in the hopper.

[MOSteelers56]

I hate to keep piling on, but you’re a valuable resource @kurgan lol

Could you look at Mike Hilton? I’d like to see what you think about his coverage ability. 

[kurgan]

No problem, @MOSteelers56...

I am doing end of the year wrapup at school right now, and we have graduation and stuff.  I will get back on the horse here in the next few days.  I already have about 1/2 of the UDFA class done, and have a good idea about the floors and ceilings piece I wanna do.  I love the one the Depot does, but I wanted to do my own.

Here is what I have, and if anyone else wants to add something or ask smaller questions, I have no issue with that.

1. Offensive Line Breakdown aka Where does Feiler play? 
2. Replacing Mark Barron
3. Breaking down the rookies pt.1--Fits and roles--DONE
4. Breaking down the rookies pt. 2--Ceilings and Floors
5. Breaking down the rookies pt.3--UDFA's camp bodies or projects?--1/2 DONE
6. The Enigma of Terrell Edmunds
7. "Can I Cover;" the Mike Hilton Story

Edited May 31, 2020 by kurgan

[kurgan]

OK guys... sorry about the delay.  Family issues, start of football nonsense, impromptu anniversary driving trip to Florida, grad classes.  But, I am back BABY!!!

I am going to shake things up.  I have the UDFA and the celeings and floors stuff on, but I want to take a look at some of the players we have.

And... I am obviously curious on the case of Mike Hilton as well.  So... to the front of the line, Mr Hilton.  Can you cover??

@MOSteelers56

 

Easy answer first... yes.  Yes.  Better than I thought.

I think Hilton gets pigeonholed a lot of times.  Good slot guy, great blitzer, good tackler, yada yada.  But, you don't play 62% of the snaps in the NFL if you suck and can't cover.  OC's would rip you apart.  I think his game has evolved since he was in that role.  He started out as an excellent slot corner blitzer and made his hay there, but if you can't cover, you would not be able to play so much.  His role has grown every year, and he has gotten more and more playing time.

As I watch Hilton on film, I am struck by his intellegence and football acumen.  I can't tell you how hard it is to coach a dude to play both the run and pass.  It is tough.  Hilton breaks through on run support and attacks gaps and linemen, but it also flashes on passes.  I am not sure if there is a stat for missed assignments that is public, but I would love to see it.  Most nickel corners are stuck playing some version of man or hook to curl concepts, but not Hilton.  This past year, I saw him getting dudes lined up, saw him switch on routes, and saw him drop to a deep 1/2 as a FS... in the same game (Cincy #2).  I think alot of his coverage skill comes from his intellegence, whether that be in the film room, natural ability, or outstanding coaching.

Also on film, Hilton does the most with the least.  Seeing him vs big dudes is fun.  He looks them in the eye with swagger and tries to erase them.  Even on plays he is beat, he is 100% competition.  His footwork is much better than his rookie tape, and he is just so smart.

OK, so where is Hilton hurt?  Covering certain guys is a real challenge for Hilton.  He is 5'9", 185.  When he was matched on elite athletes (Julian Edleman) or tall, jumpball guys (Tyler Boyd/Keenan Allen) he had a hard time.  But, that is expected.  His worst game was the NE game, where Edleman got him for 6 of 9 for 163.  Not a good night for Hilton.  Now, there are lots of reasons why this happened (Nelson new to Pitt, scheme challenges, Safety mess, That Brady guy) but what I saw was Hilton isolated on Edleman in the slot a lot.  When you let Edleman play off the line, he kills you with outs, slants, drags, arrows, and everything under 5 yards.  And, he did that.  Let's remember, Hilton didn't kill the combine.  Now, I would have looked at this and thought of a change, but we didn't.  Hilton's second worst game was Cincy #2.  He got isolated on Tyler Boyd in the slot a lot.  And, it was a mixed results.  Boyd went 3 for 5 with 82 yards, and had a big 50+ yarder in that game.  Cincy found a way to exploit him in the slot, and he outquicked and outjumped Hilton. 

But, that was his second worst game.  The guys he manned up?  He shut down Larry Fitzgerald (2 of 5, 11 yards); Cooper Kupp (2 of 8, 23 yards); and Jarvis Landry TWICE (6 of 16, 83 yards).  He even got revenge on Edleman-lite in Cole Beasley.

So, if we are looking at the main question... can Hilton cover... the answer is yes... if you understand his limitations.  Will a 6'5" jumpball WR give him fits?  Yes.  Will an elite phonebooth WR give him fits?  Yes.  Can he lock down a lot of teams #3?  Yes.  He plays above his 5'9" height, and has ball skills that are good, not great.  He will not be a huge INT dude, but he will be around the football and know where HE is supposed to be.  He is best in off man coverage or zone.  But, in the slot, he is rarely in press situations.  

Let me put it another way... camp will be fun and I expect some wars with Hilton against Mapletron, DJ and JJSS.  Those are the 3 that will give him the most problems. But, I do not expect Hilton to back down, and for him to get better.  I think him and JWash could get firey and they both can get better in reps.

@jebrick asked the question in the other thread about can he cover under 7 yards for 4 seconds.  I would trust him to cover 80% of the WR that he will line up against.  There are going to mismatches.  He might find himself on Mark Andrews, Tyler Boyd, Hollywood Brown, OBJ or someone else from time to time.  Hopefully, we can see this as a defense and fix it.  He will compete and might get beat.  But, if you take a whole person approach and look at his body of work in run support, getting people lined up, position flexibility, competiveness and fire, he is who you want out there.  I think he is everything that we wanted in Senquez Golston when we took him a couple of years ago.

As far as Hilton vs Sutton, I am going to abstain.  I think Sutton is a better cover guy, but I don't know if he is a better nickel.  In a perfect world, Sutton is our new dime guy.  Edmunds slides down, Sutton plays FS or NB, with Hilton as the other.

 

Hit me with questions.  Please.  And thoughts or comments.

 

 

[kurgan]

Any followups??  I am ready to move on with what is next..

1. Offensive Line Breakdown aka Where does Feiler play? 
2. Replacing Mark Barron
3. Breaking down the rookies pt.1--Fits and roles--DONE
4. Breaking down the rookies pt. 2--Ceilings and Floors
5. Breaking down the rookies pt.3--UDFA's camp bodies or projects?--1/2 DONE
6. The Enigma of Terrell Edmunds
7. "Can I Cover;" the Mike Hilton Story

I am going to come back around to the UDFAs and the C/F in a bit.  I am torn on the other 3.  Edmunds should be a fun study, as will the OL situation.  The Barron one is more of a stream of conciousness/opinion piece, but I can certainly do that and I have a great theory on that.  Maybe I will do that one later today as i pull film for the OL.  Or Edmunds.

Feel free to weigh in.

[Dcash4]

Edmunds and the OLine are two I’m an extremely interested in seeing what you find, but I’m looking forward to all of your write ups. 

[kurgan]

OK, *cracks knuckles*, time to get back on the horse.

I've been putting this one off since I wanted to devote the time to it that it deserves....

Matt Feiler.

Damn... dude is big.  I guess that is what pops off first on film.  Dude is legit huge.

OK, that out of the way, let's look at what Matt Feiler is.  Going back to his introduction to the Steelers, he was a camp body that stuck around.  Why??  Dude is a sponge.  You can literally see his growth from his time in camp/pre-season to today.  He is so much more of a technition.  His footwork is sooo much better.  Angles, play strength.  Not to say that Bloomburg stinks or did not have a good OL coach, but he really grew once he got here (thanks Munch!!!).  He was always big and powerful, but he is so much better with his hands and feet now.  That is huge when it comes to this elite level.

Before we get to film,  let's generally talk positions.  I know Feiler broke in as a IOL, and then worked outside and really took off.  So, the argument goes that he should kick inside, right??  Not to belabor the point, but just switching SIDES on the OL is tough.  As the adage goes... 'tell anyone that it is easy to go home and take a s**t and wipe with the other hand."  Sure, you can flip a LG to RG, but they have to acclimatize.  Everything is backwards.  Gaps, calls, options, flips, protections, blitzes, hand placements, foot stagger.  Oh, and remember the snap count.  Now, kick inside.

I will admit that going inside is easier than going outside.  Simply put, NFL OTs are hard to find.  There are not that many.  Tackle is such a different position than IOL.  You have so much more responsibility.  Not to mention more speed and technique from the players you are playing against.  You never hear much about guards going to tackle on elite levels.  Just different athletic profile and mental process.  To say that it was impressive for Feiler to make the conversion is an understatement.  If you look at the Rams game last year, he kicked inside in a WEEK for Foster.  That is super crazy.

I can only imagine that Feiler is a self-made man that came out of college as a camp body IOL, wanted to play and made himself indespensible.  Then wanted to play more, and kicked outside.  It is truly an amazing journey.  His physical profile did not change much, but his mental work, film study, positional understanding and overall football talent just took off.

To the film...what made him a good NFL tackle??  Size, obviously.  You can't coach 6'6' 330 with good feet.  Hands and feet are SOOO far ahead of 2017.  Outside shoulder punch is blunt and vicious, and he is a powerful run blocker.  His pass pro is actually pretty great, which surpised me.  He can get beat outside, but stuffs inside well.  He only gave up 4 sacks last year, which is super impressive. He is consistent and overall what you want to see with an NFL tackle.  On film, you just see play after play of Feiler doing everything well.  He doesn't bury guys, he doesn't KO dudes, he just does his job (He handled Aaron Donald, BTW).  (There is some great film breakdowns on BTSC, BUT.... I like watching games and not highlights, so... Youtube).

@MOSteelers56 wanted to know about Ramon Foster.  Watching film of Foster wasn't as bad as I thought.  Even against elite dudes, he was above average.  He was very technically sound, and got the job done.  Even the Pats game, he held his own.  Again (this is a theme) he was on film doing things over and over very well.  A bit more before and after snap talking, a bit more sloppy footwork/hand placement, and more penalties.  In this vein, I thought about 2017.  Going back to the film I culled for Feiler, I put on Foster.

Damn... Its like I was watching 2019 Felier (tech-wise).  Foster was a MAN in 2017.  (Watched the first Baltimore game... wow).  Feet, hands, tech, run block, pass pro... dude was awesome.

Father time is undefeated, and Foster was not the same player in 2019.  And, it was not something that would get better.

 

Moving off of the film,  why would you move a top 5-10 NFL RT to LG?? 

Here is where I put on my coaching hat and pontificate.  In no particular order, I feel like the reasons are: role of LG, protection for Pouncey, have to find out if Chuks/Banner CAN step in, fix run game and plan for backup/backup plan.

1. The Steelers are different when it comes to OL responsibilites.  I am not sure if other teams do this as much, but the Steelers have the LG call protections (well, Foster did it).  Without making this overcomplicated, defenses do many things pre-snap.  In the old days, the C did all of the legwork when it came to pre-snap changes.  But, the Steelers, for a while, have split up the duties.  The trickle down of all of this is, if the LG (or anyone else on the OL) does the protections, the C doesn't know if the offense is 'set.'  This is why you saw Foster nudge Pouncey before the snap.  While Pouncey is listening for snap counts, audibles, checks, flips or even whole play changes (when Ben is at QB) and making changes, Foster was looking at the defense for blitzes, shifts or stems.  (I can go into this further if you all are interested in this).  Now, I would imagine that DDC could do this, and may, but maybe they want Feiler to do it?
2. This may be a controversial statement, but Pouncey is also on a decline.  His snaps are obvious, but defenses are starting to pick on ole Pounce.  Now, luckily he is still above average (I wasn't watching him, but it was hard to miss him...).  You have a top 2 RG on one side, and you can theoretically surround him with elite guards.
3. By Tomlin publicly saying that Feiler is starting at LG, you MAKE Chuks/Banner step up.  They are on blast.  Chuks got a tryout in the Rams game, and did OK.  Now, time to take the job, or Banner takes it... or neither.
4. The off season mandate to fix the run game affects this decision.  While there are MANY reasons the run game fell off last year, Foster was never an elite run blocker.  Feiler is very, very good.  Very, very powerful.  Theoretically, moving him inside makes the run game better.
5. Ties into #3... we all WANT Chuks/Banner to take the RT and run.  Every coach in America will tell you that you play your best 5.  If Chuks/Banner is one of your best 5, they can't play LG (in theory... I will argue that Banner would make a great guard), which means that Feiler has to move (Villy at guard would be hilarious).  BUT, if you find out after your first scrimmage that it isn't going to work, you can ALWAYS kick Feiler back out and play Wiz at LG.  I do not want to get going on Wiz, but I love him as a backup IOL, not as a starter.  (Also, while I am at it, the whole 'your backup center can't start' is rubbish).  Bottom line, you start with your dream OL, and let them fail to a backup plan that you hold in your back pocket.

If I had to guess, I would put money on 3, 5 and a bit of 2.  Our inside run game would suffer greatly with Pouncey/Wiz inside.

 

So, @MOSteelers56, I am sure I forgot something.  DDC is a grown man, but does get sloppy at times.  Pounce is Pounce, and is gojng to be around as long as Ben.  We will miss him when he is gone, but he is not the same player either.  Villy is a fully functional LT who gets beat with smaller speed rushers.  But Feiler... man, I hope we can resign him.

It should be no surprise that my dream line for 2020 would be the status quo... Chuks/Banner take a leap.  But, not because I don't trust Feiler... 

 

Anyway, that was fun... question it up.

 

1. Offensive Line Breakdown aka Where does Feiler play? 
2. Replacing Mark Barron
3. Breaking down the rookies pt.1--Fits and roles--DONE
4. Breaking down the rookies pt. 2--Ceilings and Floors
5. Breaking down the rookies pt.3--UDFA's camp bodies or projects?--1/2 DONE
6. The Enigma of Terrell Edmunds
7. "Can I Cover;" the Mike Hilton Story

I want to do the Barron one next in a couple of days.  It will be more of an opinion piece, with my idea of how I would replace him.  I will save Edmunds for after training camp gets kicked up.  In the meantime... 

[jebrick]

I think Banner steps up.  He looked pretty good in preseason at LT and RT.

[kurgan]

5 hours ago, jebrick said:

I think Banner steps up.  He looked pretty good in preseason at LT and RT.

Banner is another lunchpail/self-made man at this point.  Also, very ballsy to bet on yourself this year.  Came into the league in terrible shape and made himself into a swing tackle.  Now has the chance to step up even more and take the job.  I selfishly hope that Chuks wins the job cuz we won't be able to keep Banner in 2021, but I love Banner and he makes the team better.  He has the tools to make it happen, for sure.  Plus... man is he big.