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JStar221

Left Tackle or Simmons?

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Thanks Acgott – I love the discussions too. No other sports on to watch- so what else? Rather than re-respond to each point just want to address certain topics. Though the others probably all related.

3—I don’t hate Barkley. If I did I wouldn’t be favoring getting him an OL. I disliked this past year’s version of  Barkley. Not the rookie Barkley. But because we are so far behind on defense, I think the only way to win with him is get that initial defensive line off his back. Get him an OL that can get him a bit of a head start without so early having him have to juke the 1st defender.

4— As far as our OL—were you saying you thought they were hurt this year? How many injuries did they have last year in the OL? I thought they were healthy most of the year.  

In regards to how bad they were our young franchise QB was 3rd overall in QB Hits. While it’s also a combination of Jones holding on to ball too long, and Barkley being an embarrassment as a blocker- it’s also the OL.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&offensiveStatisticCategory=OFFENSIVE_LINE&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=PASSING_QBHIT&tabSeq=2&season=2019&role=TM&Submit=Go&archive=false&conference=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&qualified=false

Secondly, Barkley had a mediocre year in part because his offense line couldn’t get him enough holes. With his speed and maneuverability and Jones being pretty decent at QB— can we believe that for 8 consecutive games after game 2.  in which he didn’t run for 100 yards, and with his talent, and considering we played an easy schedule (link below), that the OL also wasn’t a big cause for the hits and Barkley’s lack of production?

http://powerrankingsguru.com/nfl/strength-of-schedule.php

5--  I’m guessing that my position point is that you’re taking issue with I think it’s about my questioning if Simmons can handle the heavy rush and how I feel the OL and the LT is so important? If that’s what you’re saying then you are correct we differ big time.

Successful teams rush the football too. Positions are important which is why it’s important to know if  Simmons handles being a LB when he comes against the teams that run the ball with power. The teams with good OL’s influence the flow of the game (which is why for example a LT is a difference maker in that he can spring a RB or stop the opposition from getting to the QB thus exposing the other team’s pass defense.).

But below we can see the terrific teams that ran the football well.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/rushing-yards-per-game

And what we see below the blueprint of Bellchick. The league is going one way he goes the other. SO what did we see in 2018?

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/jan/29/bill-belichick-new-england-patriots-strategy-nfl-super-bowl-liii

So what did we see in 2018? We saw two power running teams go at it in the Super Bowl. And I’m pretty sure Goff’s effectiveness gradually falls off a cliff once his star RB and his backup began to decline. Without the RB’;s and the OL- what is Goff? The OLine had a lot to do with his success.  SO while many teams do 3 WR sets – many good teams also play smash mouth football. And to play it—the OL needs to be very good. That’s why the question regarding if Simmons can handle being a LB when the opposing team will play smash mouth.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/rushing-yards-per-game?date=2019-02-04

Thus we can’t ignore potential trends which might be happening in the NFL. Per the link below wccih would highlight the importance of the OL along with the concern of LB's not being able to handle the rush. 

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/patriots/2020/01/29/are-nfl-offenses-trending-back-toward-ground-and-pound-game/bdAZ6RGHPuQELKTYOgkfiP/story.html

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10 hours ago, Kip Smithers said:


We’re all talking in generalities here, so I don’t know where you’re getting at. And you’re reading wayyyyy to into the word elite. Calling somebody rare is to say that player is does not come around often. Great tackles prospects come and go. And in this draft there are a lot of potential franchise tackles. I don’t get what is so difficult to understand here. 
 

We need a difference maker on defensive side of the ball because we don’t have anything to build around? No cornerstones. Nothing really. If you’re running a team, you want to have at least something to build around or upon on both sides of the ball.
 

And again by not taking a tackle at #4 does not mean we can’t get a tackle in this draft. There is a reason Gettleman and everybody says this is a deep tackle class. It means that we find a franchise tackle potentially late first and early second. 
 

We're never going to come to an agreement. The bold comment you made I couldn't disagree with that comment more if it is the context I think you're speaking and even then imo your context of "great tackles" and mine are probably a lot different. Add you would have to be speaking of "Left tackles." Because how many great Left Tackles have the Giants gotten over the past 10 years?   The Giants even had to pay more than anyone else in 2018 for an above average LT who turned out to be downright awful in Solder. 

And as far as your "rare" comment on SImmons I still don't know what it means. In a basketball analogy a guy could average a triple double of 10/10/10 and what he did it in terms of average would be rare but suppose his team doesn't go anywhere?. But if another guy averages over 20 and has other pretty good drafts and leads his team to championship he might be better than the "rare guy" or fit better on that team. In other words rare doesn't mean as much if he is a jack of all trades but master of none. 

So saying that a guy is "rare'has some meaning but it doesn't mean anything vs another player unless in some manner there's an explanation why is rarity is better than a multi- year all-pro at a premium position? I want to hear more as Giants fan why Simmons when I ask what is he great at? The reply I get back is that he is "rare in versatility." But it doesn't answer the question of what is he great at? Tell me what he is great at. 

As a lB can he be terrific vs the heavy run teams/ As CB can he cover a #1 WR? A number 2 WR? As for Safety who is he best compared to? Ronnie Lott? Ed Reed? 

--------------------------------------------

And when you speak of "difference makers" who is the lockdown difference maker on offense? Barkley? The stats don't support Barkley as a difference maker last year. 

For example, Barkley doesn’t face too many “8 man in the box” vs many of the other RB's per the 1st link below. For all his talent why were the approximately 8 - 9 consecutive games he couldn’t get 100 yards or more?  And if the OL is decent enough why is Barkley with all his talent only “decently rated” in terms of efficiency (2nd link)? How is he a difference maker with such "average" stats? The 2nd link below identifies that he was just about average in terms of efficiency. "Average" is not really a difference maker. Or maybe it is to some small degree. 

And as far as the 3rd link, with the number 2 pick and all of his talent, if the OL was okay why is he only ranked 19th by football outsiders? Someone is under-performing here. At 19 it’s not “bad” but this is Barkley – the number 2 pick with all his talent. We didn’t draft a RB at 2 just to be “okay.”  We want a difference maker. What's the cause? 

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/rushing#percent-eight-defenders

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/rushing#efficiency

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/nfl/rb/2019

So what would be your plan to make Barkley a difference maker? You think a 2nd rd draft of a LT (the 6th 7th or 8th Tackle picked) taken is pretty much a lock that Barkley will be fine? And how is the Giants starting Center right now? Pulley? And we lost our starting RT. So now we're going to have two backup caliber guys fighting for the starting RT spot. 

So a rookie LT (6, 7 or 8 pick) and who knows when we get a center or rely on Pulley, and then hope the backup guys at RT can perform well enough-  and then that means we know Barkley will now be a difference maker? IMO if that is the plan - it's not really a plan - it's a prayer. 

------------------------------------

And imo if we are going to quote Dave Gettleman now having any validity in his statements first we need to know is he talking a deep draft in rd 1 then for  later rounds or throughout the draft? But more importantly looking at the link below he seems to be altering his approach and going for need. 

https://nypost.com/2020/04/18/giants-dave-gettleman-altering-approach-for-2020-nfl-draft/

SO if we want to go by DG's word and he feels it vital that he needs that difference maker- why then didn't he get CLwoney?

Or if guys like Bradberry and Martinez and Fackrell are not difference makers and we paid about $80M for them instead maybe he could have had maybe Clowney and someone better than Bradberry like Fowler or Littleton  or maybe even on March 16th could have also gone after Armstead from San Fran. 

But he didn't do any of this I don't believe. So maybe if we look at his actions it's not supporting what he feels as a draft need vs getting a LT? There might a some pretty good Tackles available in early rd 4 for backup positions which someday could be starters. Other possibilities to answering your question on why he said it along with trading down in rd 1 too. Got 4 prime OT's. possibly in DG's opinion. 

---------------------------------------------

In summary: Who do you think the offensive difference makers are on offense for the Giants?

And what positions is Simmons great at between LB, CB and S and which (or all) can he play for 3 downs vs any team?  

******And I'll say if Simmons is "great rare" and not just "jack-of-all-trades-master-of-little-rare) then it's hard to go wrong with that. You really can't. 

I do prefer great defense but I don't know what Simmons is to even say he can be that.  

 

 

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6 hours ago, Kip Smithers said:

After the first notable 4 tackles (Beckton, Thomas, Wirfs and Wills), there are still tackles that can be immediate starters Ezra Cleveland, Josh Jones, Lucas Niang. And Jackson is a wildcard, he’s more boom or bust. I’m hoping we can trade up into the late first if we find the guy we’re looking for or the value is there.

I agree and disagree.  If I were GM of the giants I would take Simmons.  He's an elite athlete and is extremely versatile.  However, to take advantage of Simmons, you need a coaching staff willing to do so as he literally doesn't have a position.  The position he played most last year in Clemson's defense was slot corner.  Clearly, none of us know if we have a coaching staff that's capable of using his versatility because its a brand new staff.

 

On the other hand, with taking a tackle.  Yes we can wait until the second round to take a tackle, but the reality is that Nate Solder is going to be gone next year most likely and if the second round tackle either a) doesn't pan out or b) isn't ready to step over to play left tackle, we're just looking and being in the same position we are in right now, potentially worse.  

 

Also, Ezra Cleveland and Josh Jones aren't going to be there for our second round pick so we'd have to give up more assets to move up and get them.  

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2 hours ago, JStar221 said:

In summary: Who do you think the offensive difference makers are on offense for the Giants?

And what positions is Simmons great at between LB, CB and S and which (or all) can he play for 3 downs vs any team?  

******And I'll say if Simmons is "great rare" and not just "jack-of-all-trades-master-of-little-rare) then it's hard to go wrong with that. You really can't. 

I do prefer great defense but I don't know what Simmons is to even say he can be that

Saquon is a difference maker. Simple as that. The fact that he can take it to the house any time touches the ball. I don’t know how anybody says he isn’t a difference maker.

Simmons is a great safety and LBer. We finally have somebody who can cover TE’s and RBs. We finally would have somebody who could contain mobile QBs. Finally have somebody who can be explosive on weak side. Someone is a great blitzer. We have some good lineman up front who can create gaps for him to make plays. Simmons can be used like Derwin James with Simmons being easily better athlete. 

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2 hours ago, JStar221 said:

We're never going to come to an agreement. The bold comment you made I couldn't disagree with that comment more if it is the context I think you're speaking and even then imo your context of "great tackles" and mine are probably a lot different. Add you would have to be speaking of "Left tackles." Because how many great Left Tackles have the Giants gotten over the past 10 years?   The Giants even had to pay more than anyone else in 2018 for an above average LT who turned out to be downright awful in Solder. 

And as far as your "rare" comment on SImmons I still don't know what it means. In a basketball analogy a guy could average a triple double of 10/10/10 and what he did it in terms of average would be rare but suppose his team doesn't go anywhere?. But if another guy averages over 20 and has other pretty good drafts and leads his team to championship he might be better than the "rare guy" or fit better on that team. In other words rare doesn't mean as much if he is a jack of all trades but master of none. 

So saying that a guy is "rare'has some meaning but it doesn't mean anything vs another player unless in some manner there's an explanation why is rarity is better than a multi- year all-pro at a premium position? I want to hear more as Giants fan why Simmons when I ask what is he great at? The reply I get back is that he is "rare in versatility." But it doesn't answer the question of what is he great at? Tell me what he is great at. 

As a lB can he be terrific vs the heavy run teams/ As CB can he cover a #1 WR? A number 2 WR? As for Safety who is he best compared to? Ronnie Lott? Ed Reed? 

--------------------------------------------

And when you speak of "difference makers" who is the lockdown difference maker on offense? Barkley? The stats don't support Barkley as a difference maker last year. 

For example, Barkley doesn’t face too many “8 man in the box” vs many of the other RB's per the 1st link below. For all his talent why were the approximately 8 - 9 consecutive games he couldn’t get 100 yards or more?  And if the OL is decent enough why is Barkley with all his talent only “decently rated” in terms of efficiency (2nd link)? How is he a difference maker with such "average" stats? The 2nd link below identifies that he was just about average in terms of efficiency. "Average" is not really a difference maker. Or maybe it is to some small degree. 

And as far as the 3rd link, with the number 2 pick and all of his talent, if the OL was okay why is he only ranked 19th by football outsiders? Someone is under-performing here. At 19 it’s not “bad” but this is Barkley – the number 2 pick with all his talent. We didn’t draft a RB at 2 just to be “okay.”  We want a difference maker. What's the cause? 

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/rushing#percent-eight-defenders

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/rushing#efficiency

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/nfl/rb/2019

So what would be your plan to make Barkley a difference maker? You think a 2nd rd draft of a LT (the 6th 7th or 8th Tackle picked) taken is pretty much a lock that Barkley will be fine? And how is the Giants starting Center right now? Pulley? And we lost our starting RT. So now we're going to have two backup caliber guys fighting for the starting RT spot. 

So a rookie LT (6, 7 or 8 pick) and who knows when we get a center or rely on Pulley, and then hope the backup guys at RT can perform well enough-  and then that means we know Barkley will now be a difference maker? IMO if that is the plan - it's not really a plan - it's a prayer. 

------------------------------------

And imo if we are going to quote Dave Gettleman now having any validity in his statements first we need to know is he talking a deep draft in rd 1 then for  later rounds or throughout the draft? But more importantly looking at the link below he seems to be altering his approach and going for need. 

https://nypost.com/2020/04/18/giants-dave-gettleman-altering-approach-for-2020-nfl-draft/

SO if we want to go by DG's word and he feels it vital that he needs that difference maker- why then didn't he get CLwoney?

Or if guys like Bradberry and Martinez and Fackrell are not difference makers and we paid about $80M for them instead maybe he could have had maybe Clowney and someone better than Bradberry like Fowler or Littleton  or maybe even on March 16th could have also gone after Armstead from San Fran. 

But he didn't do any of this I don't believe. So maybe if we look at his actions it's not supporting what he feels as a draft need vs getting a LT? There might a some pretty good Tackles available in early rd 4 for backup positions which someday could be starters. Other possibilities to answering your question on why he said it along with trading down in rd 1 too. Got 4 prime OT's. possibly in DG's opinion. 

---------------------------------------------

In summary: Who do you think the offensive difference makers are on offense for the Giants?

And what positions is Simmons great at between LB, CB and S and which (or all) can he play for 3 downs vs any team?  

******And I'll say if Simmons is "great rare" and not just "jack-of-all-trades-master-of-little-rare) then it's hard to go wrong with that. You really can't. 

I do prefer great defense but I don't know what Simmons is to even say he can be that.  

Killing it man...Really enjoy reading your comments, you put a lot of thought into your words.  I agree with much of what you're saying and for the same reasons.

Not likely but if Chase Young were to fall to us I'd consider selecting him at 4 but as much as I love watching a great defense this team under Gettleman's command has invested a tremendous amount of draft capitol already in Saquon Barkley 2nd overall selection in 2018 and Daniel Jones 6th overall in 2019.  We both know that neither of these players are going to do much if anything without a quality offensive line.  So not addressing the line from my point of view is not only wasting the 2020 4th overall selection, the franchise has also pissed away the previous two seasons top draft selections.  

Two years ago we could have drafted Quinten Nelson, a top talent but instead the team opted for the lessor talent and drafted W. Hernandez.  How's that working out?...It's not.

A few years ago we got jumped by Washington and was forced to draft E. Flowers when we could have had Brandon Scherff.  Waiting around with the idea that we can pick up someone in the second round with the mindset that there isn't a big difference is crazy.  It's what put the team in this situation and why we continue to draft high each year.  Not sure about you guys but I'm sick of losing.  Drafting Simmons imo makes zero sense.  For one, we aren't in a position to be drafting players that don't have a position.  Looking at the tape on this kid, he's undersized to play OLB in the 34, we've already invested draft capitol and veteran money for inside linebacker, which at that position he'd be limited to coverage and not run blocking.  Anyway, my point being is he wouldn't help the Giants win a single game, where investing in the actual problem could potentially get this team moving in the right direction.  I think we can all agree, that our offensive line has been crap, and crap for some time now.  Going back to 2017, we've drafted Will Hernandez with the 2nd pick in 2nd round and George Asafo-Adjei with a mid 7th rounder, if you didn't know, he's not on the roster any more.

Call me crazy, but maybe it's time we actually address the issue that has prevented this team from doing better than winning 3 or 4 games a season. 

I believed why Gettleman was hired was because he kept saying how he could fix the offensive line, I haven't seen that and in fact it's worse now than before his time here.   

My personal favorite is Andrew Thomas Georgia, not only is he an exceptional pass blocker but he's an even better run blocker.  He's exactly what this franchise needs to win.

 

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11 minutes ago, Kip Smithers said:

Saquon is a difference maker. Simple as that. The fact that he can take it to the house any time touches the ball. I don’t know how anybody says he isn’t a difference maker.

Simmons is a great safety and LBer. We finally have somebody who can cover TE’s and RBs. We finally would have somebody who could contain mobile QBs. Finally have somebody who can be explosive on weak side. Someone is a great blitzer. We have some good lineman up front who can create gaps for him to make plays. Simmons can be used like Derwin James with Simmons being easily better athlete. 

How many more games would the Giants win with Simmons vs a quality offensive line?

Barkley will make you money on t-shirts sales but as talented as he is this team isn't winning games without some quality additions to the offensive line.

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11 hours ago, Kip Smithers said:

After the first notable 4 tackles (Beckton, Thomas, Wirfs and Wills), there are still tackles that can be immediate starters Ezra Cleveland, Josh Jones, Lucas Niang. And Jackson is a wildcard, he’s more boom or bust. I’m hoping we can trade up into the late first if we find the guy we’re looking for or the value is there.

If we were one or two top players away from getting over the top to be a Superbowl contending ending team I would be all for trading back into the first round. We are far from that, we need as much talent as we can get from this  draft. We can't afford to be trading away our premium draft picks (round 1-3 and for this year i'll count our 4th round as well)  to move up, it is bad enough the jets have our early 3rd round pick. 

Only exception I would be for to this is if we traded our 1st round pick back a few spots, and was able to use the extra draft capitol gain from trading down to move back into the first.

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6 hours ago, ny92mike said:

How many more games would the Giants win with Simmons vs a quality offensive line?

Barkley will make you money on t-shirts sales but as talented as he is this team isn't winning games without some quality additions to the offensive line.

I dunno. It’s hard to predict. But this team ain’t winning anytime soon. Regardless of who we draft we ain’t winning more than 5 games. This team isn’t winning anything without impact players on defense. Also I think for someone as mobile as Daniel Jones, I think getting that Center spot is a bit more important. 

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Great read fellas. The biggest need by a mile is the center position. Centers set the guys up for the blocks not the qb the center and only the center. The shifts were never made on most of the plays last year. The oline would have been fine with a smart talented center.  We haven't had a decent center since Ohara and he wasn't talented but he set everyone up.  

Now Simmons can do it all at a high level and is a student of the game.  Hes still learning and getting better.  What has killed the giants for years now.  Tight ends and backs out of the backfield.  Well what if Simmons can cover them?  7 sacks 3 picks his last year of college shows he can do a whole lot something we never had

Tackles. I have what's highlights and games with the top 4 tackles. Top guy is Wills but hes a right tackle and in would keep him there.  Thomas is trash and will be out of the league quickly. Hes a holding penalty waiting to happen.  Becton is raw and powerful and might be the best left tackle in the draft but like I said raw.  He bullies everyone but that won't happen in the nfl. A good line coach hopefully fixes that. Lastly Wirfs talent all over him but his feet suck. There's a video on Wirfs ans Wills. I was very shocked how bad his feet are.  Hopefully coating helps him too and incantations see him playing either tackle position

Final analysis is these tackles are ok not great. Very overrated.  There's no Joe Thomas or Orlando Pace tackles unfortunately. Simmons is a rare breed that can do just about anything on defense. Speed and smarts and he will still improve.  All and all I would pick Simmons at 4. This kid can change the whole defense. Adds so much speed something we don't have. 

Goal for this draft is Simmons and Ruiz from Michigan. Those are the 2 biggest needs and if we land them it will change the whole oline and defense.  Leader on oline that can set everyone up and leaves no leaks on the line. Simmons on defense gives them many options. 

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Posted (edited)
On 4/19/2020 at 1:32 PM, Kip Smithers said:

After the first notable 4 tackles (Beckton, Thomas, Wirfs and Wills), there are still tackles that can be immediate starters Ezra Cleveland, Josh Jones, Lucas Niang. And Jackson is a wildcard, he’s more boom or bust. I’m hoping we can trade up into the late first if we find the guy we’re looking for or the value is there.

Cleveland and Jones should not be viewed as immediate starters. EDGE rushers will up root Cleveland weak lower body every day and 10 times on Sunday. Jones is just not ready footwork wise; he is always false stepping and losing his positioning, and over committing. Honestly if it wasn't for his surreal movement skills Jones wouldn't even be in the round 4 conversation. He basically was just too athletic for AAC defenders to move past him. Also he gets baited into adjusting mid set too often. Guys with strong hands can just throw a simple head fake into their power rush and Jones will start chopping the grass and boom its over for him. 

Niang is very talented, and he would probably be in the top 20 conversation if didn't get injured last year. 

 

BTW I like Cleveland's and Jones' potential, but they should not be immediate starters especially Cleveland. 

Edited by YogiBiz

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Posted (edited)

I'm still floored everyone in this forum is convinced Isaiah Simmons will be on the board at 4.

Detroit wants this guy. They probably won't select Okudah cause the difference in drop off to Okudah to second round CB from Simmons to second round slotCB/LB/S is astronomical. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Carolina tried selling the farm to trade up and nab him. 

For the same reasons Washington wouldn't want to pass on Young, can we say for certain that Detroit doesn't want to pass on Simmons?

Edited by YogiBiz

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Cuziam71 said:

Great read fellas. The biggest need by a mile is the center position. Centers set the guys up for the blocks not the qb the center and only the center. The shifts were never made on most of the plays last year. The oline would have been fine with a smart talented center.  We haven't had a decent center since Ohara and he wasn't talented but he set everyone up.  

We had Richburg with terrible guards and only the glass man Will Beatty to assist him. You can survive with an average center. Teams do it all the time. Matter of fact, who was the last "elite" center to win a SB. 

Quote

Now Simmons can do it all at a high level and is a student of the game.  Hes still learning and getting better.  What has killed the giants for years now.  Tight ends and backs out of the backfield.  Well what if Simmons can cover them?  7 sacks 3 picks his last year of college shows he can do a whole lot something we never had

7 Sacks show he's good at blitzing, and three picks means he can cover people. We have had both of those. Quit exaggerating to make your sell easier. 

Quote

Tackles. I have what's highlights and games with the top 4 tackles. Top guy is Wills but hes a right tackle and in would keep him there.

Not even close to the top guy. Probably the worst out of the four. 

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  Thomas is trash and will be out of the league quickly. Hes a holding penalty waiting to happen. 

Could you explain this to me? Thomas has had the consistently cleanest punch in the draft.  

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Becton is raw and powerful and might be the best left tackle in the draft but like I said raw.

Yes because the guy with the cleanest footwork in this class is raw. You're right. It's not like he isn't picturesque in his lower half. Anyone who calls Becton "Raw" hasn't watched him. He needs more seasoning when it comes to his punch timing. Other than that, he frames blocks better than anyone in this class. He mirrors speed very well, this notion that Becton can't play needs to stop. His issue is his punch cadence, not footwork, not keeping up with Speed Guys, and not, not being technically sound. 

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  He bullies everyone but that won't happen in the nfl. A good line coach hopefully fixes that.

Lol yes he will. He is 6'7" 360 lbs and has just 17% Body Fat. He will bully ball NFL Speed Rushers. 

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Lastly Wirfs talent all over him but his feet suck. There's a video on Wirfs ans Wills. I was very shocked how bad his feet are.  Hopefully coating helps him too and incantations see him playing either tackle position

I am pretty much convinced your just talking now. Wirfs has average feet at worst. He doesn't overstep too often, and is hardly ever caught with narrow feet. He is really hard to get off balance cause he has good feet. Wirfs actual issues are in his hips. He has poor change of direction, and is often beat badly by inside counters after he is pushed vertically. He is very tight in that area, and that is why I believe he will be a dominant guard. Reminds me a lot of Schreff. 

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Final analysis is these tackles are ok not great. Very overrated.  There's no Joe Thomas or Orlando Pace tackles unfortunately.

Yeah you're right there aren't any MAYBE-ONCE-IN-A-GENERATION LT on the board. You named two of the best LT's in NFL history. That's unfair to any prospect ever to compare to these two guys. You have 2 guys who could be really, really good LT's and 1 Really Good RT and another Good RT to Great OG. These four are pretty good at what they do. 

Quote

Simmons is a rare breed that can do just about anything on defense. Speed and smarts and he will still improve.  All and all I would pick Simmons at 4. This kid can change the whole defense. Adds so much speed something we don't have. 

Only average in zone coverage (exhibits a lack of awareness of where his zone begin vs where it ends). I honestly couldn't tell you if would be good a shedding blocks either. He is never asked to take on beef up front, so there is that. Does he have unforeseen talent? Sure, he does. Would I take the risk that our new coaching staff has the chops to properly utilize this man on defense. No. I wouldn't. Coaching has so much to do with development, it's unfair to expect Simmons will be Generational at 3 different positions. He is a generational LB'er with the ability to affect the game in every facet. I still wouldn't take him over a good LT. Which is one of if not the most important positions on the field (not including a QB). 

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Goal for this draft is Simmons and Ruiz from Michigan. Those are the 2 biggest needs and if we land them it will change the whole oline and defense.  Leader on oline that can set everyone up and leaves no leaks on the line. Simmons on defense gives them many options. 

Lol Cruz won't make it out the first. He's far and away the best center in this class. He actually would've been the best center in the past 3 drafts. 

Edited by YogiBiz

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, YogiBiz said:

I'm still floored everyone in this forum is convinced Isaiah Simmons will be on the board at 4.

Detroit wants this guy. They probably won't select Okudah cause the difference in drop off to Okudah to second round CB from Simmons to second round slotCB/LB/S is astronomical. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Carolina tried selling the farm to trade up and nab him. 

For the same reasons Washington wouldn't want to pass on Young, can we say for certain that Detroit doesn't want to pass on Simmons?

of course if Detroit takes Simmons then that changes a lot. But id be surprised if that happens. Detroit are much more likely to go D-line before Simmons. They lost Snacks and A’Shawn IIRC, and Derrick Brown is a very worthy choice at 3. But hey, you never know 

 

1 hour ago, YogiBiz said:

7 Sacks show he's good at blitzing, and three picks means he can cover people. We have had both of those. Quit exaggerating to make your sell easier. 

No we really haven’t had a great blitzing LBer and will all the big bodies we have up front it should greatly help him when it comes to making plays in back field. And you’re kidding if you think we’ve had a guy who could cover TE’s and RBs. Particularly the former. That’s been our Achilles heel on defense, even more so than our ability to generate with the front. Your coaching point applies to a lot of positions tbh. 

Edited by Kip Smithers

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19 minutes ago, Kip Smithers said:

of course if Detroit takes Simmons then that changes a lot. But id be surprised if that happens. Detroit are much more likely to go D-line before Simmons. They lost Snacks and A’Shawn IIRC, and Derrick Brown is a very worthy choice at 3. But hey, you never know 

Brown isn't more valuable than Simmons. The Lions have chosen what I have seen as BPA for the past few drafts. I don't really know Quinn's philosphy. So maybe a Lions' fan could help there. 

19 minutes ago, Kip Smithers said:

No we really haven’t had a great blitzing LBer and will all the big bodies we have up front it should greatly help him when it comes to making plays in back field. And you’re kidding if you think we’ve had a guy who could cover TE’s and RBs. Particularly the former. That’s been our Achilles heel on defense, even more so than our ability to generate with the front. Your coaching point applies to a lot of positions tbh. 

No I was replying to his statement that our defense has never had guys that do those things. I wasn't implying that we currently have one; I should've been cleare. 

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43 minutes ago, YogiBiz said:

Brown isn't more valuable than Simmons. The Lions have chosen what I have seen as BPA for the past few drafts. I don't really know Quinn's philosphy. So maybe a Lions' fan could help there. 

No I was replying to his statement that our defense has never had guys that do those things. I wasn't implying that we currently have one; I should've been cleare. 

I think both of you are going to be disappointed Thursday night.

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