Left Tackle or Simmons?

[minutemancl]

5 minutes ago, Acgott said:

I don’t study tape anymore so I have no idea about any of the players including Simmons. I can only look at draft boards. The majority of them have Simmons as a top 5 player, while the OL play trading spaces 6-15. When you have a top 5 pick,  you need to look at the players in that tier. There is a different tier from 1-5 compared to 6-15.

In general, I agree with that ideology. However, I think these tackles are the real deal, and I think the drop off between tackles available between the first 15 picks and the rest of the draft is huge. Plus, we aren't just taking one of the top 4 tackles. Most likely, we are going to have our pick of whichever one is the best. There are arguments for all 4, really.

I think the tiers this year are different. They aren't 1-5, 6-15. They are 1-2, then 3-15, then 15-40. Burrow and Young are in a tier by themselves. Then, you've got the top defensive guys (Brown, Simmons, Okudah, etc), the tackles, the other 2 QBs, and a few wide receivers. Then, tier 3 is huge. We aren't getting into tier 1, so tier 2 is our sweet spot. If we can trade back and stay in tier 2, that'd be ideal. Otherwise, if trade back options don't appear, just take your guy.

[Acgott]

1 hour ago, minutemancl said:

In general, I agree with that ideology. However, I think these tackles are the real deal, and I think the drop off between tackles available between the first 15 picks and the rest of the draft is huge. Plus, we aren't just taking one of the top 4 tackles. Most likely, we are going to have our pick of whichever one is the best. There are arguments for all 4, really.

I think the tiers this year are different. They aren't 1-5, 6-15. They are 1-2, then 3-15, then 15-40. Burrow and Young are in a tier by themselves. Then, you've got the top defensive guys (Brown, Simmons, Okudah, etc), the tackles, the other 2 QBs, and a few wide receivers. Then, tier 3 is huge. We aren't getting into tier 1, so tier 2 is our sweet spot. If we can trade back and stay in tier 2, that'd be ideal. Otherwise, if trade back options don't appear, just take your guy.

3-15 is the range? Is there another pass rusher we can snag?

[minutemancl]

13 minutes ago, Acgott said:

3-15 is the range? Is there another pass rusher we can snag?

Nope, not in tier 2. Draft is sooo light on good pass rushers. Our best bet is one of these edge linebackers in the tier 3 range. You're looking at Zach Baun as the main guy, as Chaisson, who is late tier 2/early tier 3, will be gone. Epenesa and Yetur Gross-Matos are high tier 3 as well, but I'm not a fan of either of them. Terrell Lewis is another name, but he's got huge medical red flags.

The value in pass rushers in this draft, if there is one, are these mid round guys from smaller schools who all they do it rush the passer. I like that Highsmith kid.

[Kip Smithers]

Personally I think we need a Center more than we need a tackle. 

[ny92mike]

5 minutes ago, Kip Smithers said:

Personally I think we need a Center more than we need a tackle. 

We definitely need a center.  Do we even have one listed in our roster?

[ny92mike]

5 hours ago, Go_Giants said:

What has also killed the Giants every single year is lacking the ability to convert on 3rd and short, settling for field goals instead of running it in for touchdowns and not being able to execute a four minute offense to run out the clock. If we draft a starting tackling and a starting center we can do all of that.

Exactly...This has been my argument for investing in offensive line, even going back to when Manning was behind center.  I wasn't a fan of the GM not resigning Richburg, SF clearly thought he had value with the contract he received.  We ended up with the tail end of all that wheeling and dealing.  

I just keep going back to why I feel that Gettlemen was signed and Reese was let go in the first place, "hog mollies".  I remember when it was the linebacker position that seemed to get ignored in years past which wasn't so bad considering we ran a 43 and it never really killed us to have average players at those positions, but now it looks like offensive line is the position to ignore and we all see how that's working out.  

Not sure about the rest of you guys but we've signed a tackle, Cameron Fleming to a one year contract, I certainly hope that we aren't done in this department.

We currently have on the roster the following players.

Spencer Pulley	C
Tanner Volson	C
Kevin Zeitler	G
Will Hernandez	G
Nick Gates	G
Eric Smith	G
Nate Wozniak	G
Nate Solder	LT
Chad Slade	RT
Cameron Fleming	T

[Kip Smithers]

1 hour ago, ny92mike said:

We definitely need a center.  Do we even have one listed in our roster?

We have Jon Halapio on our roster but he’s coming off a torn Achilles. Honestly if we are to manage to get the #1 Center in the draft then we’d have our interior line sorted which is much more important tbh than either of our tackles. Center is the most important position on line particularly for a young QB.

[ny92mike]

You couldn't sell that line to me if they all had a glass of water and I was on fire.  The overall value of this group is below average, at best.

[ny92mike]

Just now, Kip Smithers said:

We have Jon Halapio on our roster but he’s coming off a torn Achilles. Honestly if we are to manage to get the #1 Center in the draft then we’d have our interior line sorted which is much more important tbh than either of our tackles. Center is the most important position on line particularly for a young QB.

What?....That must explain why tackle makes so much more money.  Jon Halapio, the turnstyle center he's garbage a backup at best.  We also have a 2nd round draft selection in Will Hernandez, that has yet to live up to his hype from many of you.  I knew he was trash just watching a few minutes of tape and seeing he can't pull to save his life.  We need someone that can get to the second level to open up some blocking for our backs.  

Sorry man you aren't selling me on those magic beans. 

[Kip Smithers]

8 minutes ago, ny92mike said:

What?....That must explain why tackle makes so much more money.  Jon Halapio, the turnstyle center he's garbage a backup at best.  We also have a 2nd round draft selection in Will Hernandez, that has yet to live up to his hype from many of you.  I knew he was trash just watching a few minutes of tape and seeing he can't pull to save his life.  We need someone that can get to the second level to open up some blocking for our backs.  

Sorry man you aren't selling me on those magic beans. 

Because with interior lineman you typically find the value in middle rounds. That’s why they aren’t as highly paid. It’s much harder to manage interior pressure as opposed to edge pressure. Plus you need the Center for protection calls.

Edited April 22, 2020 by Kip Smithers

[Giants4eva]

Sticking to my draft board. Going with a tackle. We do a trade down and come away with Wirfs.  If its Wills, wont complain, but Wirfs im gonna stick with. But for us I wanna see a trade down to allocate more picks. Most importantly a high - mid 2nd rd pick.

 

[minutemancl]

15 minutes ago, Kip Smithers said:

We have Jon Halapio on our roster but he’s coming off a torn Achilles. Honestly if we are to manage to get the #1 Center in the draft then we’d have our interior line sorted which is much more important tbh than either of our tackles. Center is the most important position on line particularly for a young QB.

We have Spencer Pulley as well, but he's an average backup at best.

We definitely need a Center, but obviously the value isn't there for one at 4. The good news is, I think the value will be there for one in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th rounds for us. There are guys with positive qualities and starter potential that should be available for us at all of those picks. Ruiz, Cushenberry, Biadasz, Harris, Hennessy, etc. DG may be bad at a lot of things, but he has shown that he has a knack for finding value in the middle rounds of a draft. He drafts well.

For assurance, look at the stellar OL we all remember fondly from the early-late 00s:

Diehl was a 5th round pick. O'hara was undrafted. Mckenzie was a 3rd round pick. Seubert was undrafted. Snee was the highest drafted, and he was a 2nd round pick. Others have made this point recently, but a high pick doesn't mean a good OL, just like a low pick doesn't mean a bad OL. 

[ny92mike]

6 minutes ago, Kip Smithers said:

Because with interior lineman you typically find the value in middle rounds. That’s why they aren’t as highly paid. It’s much harder to manage interior pressure as opposed to edge pressure. Plus you need the Center for protection calls.

Guess that explains why edge rushers are paid more than tackles...lol.

And if the only player you have pointing out blitzes is the center isn't good either.

[ny92mike]

12 minutes ago, minutemancl said:

We have Spencer Pulley as well, but he's an average backup at best.

We definitely need a Center, but obviously the value isn't there for one at 4. The good news is, I think the value will be there for one in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th rounds for us. There are guys with positive qualities and starter potential that should be available for us at all of those picks. Ruiz, Cushenberry, Biadasz, Harris, Hennessy, etc. DG may be bad at a lot of things, but he has shown that he has a knack for finding value in the middle rounds of a draft. He drafts well.

For assurance, look at the stellar OL we all remember fondly from the early-late 00s:

Diehl was a 5th round pick. O'hara was undrafted. Mckenzie was a 3rd round pick. Seubert was undrafted. Snee was the highest drafted, and he was a 2nd round pick. Others have made this point recently, but a high pick doesn't mean a good OL, just like a low pick doesn't mean a bad OL. 

I don't think anyone is suggesting we take a center with the top pick.  Would love to see Ruiz drafted if he makes it to us in the second.  Very solid talent that can get to the second level.

I think DG does a solid job of drafting, but his track record for offensive line at least in free agency has been spotty so perhaps he puts his hands on it during the draft, however drafting Hernandez in the early second really hasn't paid off and his 7th round gem was released, granted it was a 7th so not a huge loss there.

To my knowledge O'hara and Mckenzie weren't draft picks by us, but point taken.  I'm not saying we need to draft first rounders for each position, but there are several tackles considered first round talent in this year's class, that would be upgrades over the disaster that is Nate Solder. 

"High pick doesn't mean good OL, just like a low pick doesn't mean a bad OL"....this could be said for every position.  Brady was what a 7th round pick.  

I just don't see the value in Simmons for the Giants, perhaps if we had quality edge rushers that allowed him the freedom to roam like he was able to do in college I can see his value.  Just think it's time this team invest some value picks in the offensive line and stop relying on these one year contracts by some very average players.  

For me, a successful draft would be something along the lines of what I did in the ffmd draft, landing top talent at tackle and center.  I traded down a few spots in that mock which is what I hope that DG is looking to do here, at least I hope that's what he's doing and not seriously looking at drafting another quarterback.  If he is serious about a qb, then we'll be doing that sound and dance...3-5 wins and draft another qb the following year.

   

[minutemancl]

31 minutes ago, ny92mike said:

I don't think anyone is suggesting we take a center with the top pick.  Would love to see Ruiz drafted if he makes it to us in the second.  Very solid talent that can get to the second level.

I think DG does a solid job of drafting, but his track record for offensive line at least in free agency has been spotty so perhaps he puts his hands on it during the draft, however drafting Hernandez in the early second really hasn't paid off and his 7th round gem was released, granted it was a 7th so not a huge loss there.

To my knowledge O'hara and Mckenzie weren't draft picks by us, but point taken.  I'm not saying we need to draft first rounders for each position, but there are several tackles considered first round talent in this year's class, that would be upgrades over the disaster that is Nate Solder. 

"High pick doesn't mean good OL, just like a low pick doesn't mean a bad OL"....this could be said for every position.  Brady was what a 7th round pick.  

I just don't see the value in Simmons for the Giants, perhaps if we had quality edge rushers that allowed him the freedom to roam like he was able to do in college I can see his value.  Just think it's time this team invest some value picks in the offensive line and stop relying on these one year contracts by some very average players.  

For me, a successful draft would be something along the lines of what I did in the ffmd draft, landing top talent at tackle and center.  I traded down a few spots in that mock which is what I hope that DG is looking to do here, at least I hope that's what he's doing and not seriously looking at drafting another quarterback.  If he is serious about a qb, then we'll be doing that sound and dance...3-5 wins and draft another qb the following year.

   

Watch Hernandez this year with a real OL coach in a real offense. He's a good player. He didn't have a great year last year, but he's still a good player.