AZBearsFan Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 1 hour ago, SLCbear said: I would go as high as #50 simply bc we do not have a 3rd to offer. TB wants a 2nd but would likely settle for a 3rd that we don't have. This would not deter me. OJ would be the #1 TE in this draft easily ! He is now a vet not a greenhorn rook and has shown me enough while playing under toxic circumstances, that we need to get him here NOW Besides, what NFL 'body of work' do any any draft prospects have ? 0 Howards floor is an uber athletic starter. His ceiling is still very much wide open ! Its good too for Tampa, Brady and Arians have a hand-picked top 50 pick to make its offense more suited to Brady FWIW I don’t have any interest in any of these TEs in round 2 this year. And Howard the prospect 3 years ago would be the consensus #1 TE in 2020. Howard 3 years in in 2020 though is a guy who’s underachieved to that potential significantly. His athletic profile suggests he should be producing like Ertz right now. He had the same athletic profile at Alabama too and he underachieved to it there too. There’s a lot of evidence suggesting what we’ve seen the past 3 years may just be who he is too. And again, I say that as someone who started advocating for us adding him in January. From the NFL.com draft profile on Howard by Zierlein: Howard has struggled to live up to hype that has come with his play-making ability while at Alabama, but some scouts put the blame on the staff and scheme. He has elite athletic traits and raw talent, but must add polish to go along with those attributes. Should become substantially more productive as a pro, but the difference between "potential weapon" and "elite tight end" will likely be tied to his desire and overall football character. What’s changed since then for Howard other than that we’re 3 years later? All the same questions are there, except there’s significantly more reason now to believe the current version of what we see with Howard may also turn out to be the pinnacle of his career production arc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZBearsFan Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 10 minutes ago, SLCbear said: hurts my heart to say it but Cohen makes PERFECT sense in TB.. As someone who thinks Cohen’s value here is grossly overstated I’d be totally fine moving him. I think the significance of his role in our scheme far outweighs his actual ability. I think our use of him is very forced and that it frequently limits what we are able to do and makes us more predictable on offense. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLCbear Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 48 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said: FWIW I don’t have any interest in any of these TEs in round 2 this year. And Howard the prospect 3 years ago would be the consensus #1 TE in 2020. Howard 3 years in in 2020 though is a guy who’s underachieved to that potential significantly. His athletic profile suggests he should be producing like Ertz right now. He had the same athletic profile at Alabama too and he underachieved to it there too. There’s a lot of evidence suggesting what we’ve seen the past 3 years may just be who he is too. And again, I say that as someone who started advocating for us adding him in January. From the NFL.com draft profile on Howard by Zierlein: Howard has struggled to live up to hype that has come with his play-making ability while at Alabama, but some scouts put the blame on the staff and scheme. He has elite athletic traits and raw talent, but must add polish to go along with those attributes. Should become substantially more productive as a pro, but the difference between "potential weapon" and "elite tight end" will likely be tied to his desire and overall football character. What’s changed since then for Howard other than that we’re 3 years later? All the same questions are there, except there’s significantly more reason now to believe the current version of what we see with Howard may also turn out to be the pinnacle of his career production arc. Half empty vs half full No way at his age has he hit any pinacle ! and I hear you that there may be concerns over Howard's desire to be great, but I know that he was a bad fit in tampa AND clashed HARD with Arians, yet he still showed that at the very least he is an NFL Starter.. Draft picks are ALL crap shoots ! every single one ! Getting Howard and bringing back another pick in the trade would be a absolutely fantastic. At the very least, he would not be any dropoff from Burton's first yr in Chicago and would stay healthy, learn from JGraham here too ! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beardown3231 Posted April 18, 2020 Author Share Posted April 18, 2020 2 hours ago, SLCbear said: Kmet bryant whoever aren't going to do anything if they are not featured or are in coach's dog house Burton hadn't done much to warrant his deal either but that gamble paid off. OJ is CHEAP right now, this is why I sign him to multiple yrs. Give him same deal as Burton, gamble on the Athleticism and mismatch capability. No injury issues w Howard Wait, did you say that the gamble on Burton "paid off?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beardown3231 Posted April 18, 2020 Author Share Posted April 18, 2020 2 hours ago, SLCbear said: Arians hate Howard, Howard hates Arians. It has been that way for a while now. I don't know Brady's thoughts on OJ but why not reset the O with a day 2 pick ... arians, brady, howard and chicago all win Howard needs to be featured. I think about Burton's first season and how much further Howard could move the position. Maybe Arians hates Howard because he stinks, and then maybe Howard hates Arians because Arians realizes he sucks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLCbear Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 58 minutes ago, beardown3231 said: Wait, did you say that the gamble on Burton "paid off?" Burton's 1st season here was a huge success ! all the way up until the night before PO game with his old team ..... then he fell off a cliff of injuries I don't think anybody can argue that yr 1 for Burton here was anything other than a big success Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beardown3231 Posted April 19, 2020 Author Share Posted April 19, 2020 34 minutes ago, SLCbear said: Burton's 1st season here was a huge success ! all the way up until the night before PO game with his old team ..... then he fell off a cliff of injuries I don't think anybody can argue that yr 1 for Burton here was anything other than a big success One of 2 years- in which he had under 600 yards- was decent and the next was a disaster but you think the 4 year, $32M deal paid off? Jesus, man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugashane Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 2 hours ago, SLCbear said: Burton's 1st season here was a huge success ! all the way up until the night before PO game with his old team ..... then he fell off a cliff of injuries I don't think anybody can argue that yr 1 for Burton here was anything other than a big success He stated hot but when teams focused on him he became a nobody IIRC. As for Cohen to TB I think they would use him as some of the receiving backs were in NE (and how he SHOULD be used). Run up and read the LB and option route off of him. Using his agility and speed he should have 600 yards per season easily like this, and if they try to focus on him then they are opening a passing lane for an outside receiver pretty regularly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindyCity Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 5 hours ago, AZBearsFan said: As someone who thinks Cohen’s value here is grossly overstated I’d be totally fine moving him. I think the significance of his role in our scheme far outweighs his actual ability. I think our use of him is very forced and that it frequently limits what we are able to do and makes us more predictable on offense. Preach. That was perfect. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindyCity Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 3 hours ago, SLCbear said: Burton's 1st season here was a huge success ! all the way up until the night before PO game with his old team ..... then he fell off a cliff of injuries I don't think anybody can argue that yr 1 for Burton here was anything other than a big success 22 million worth? 1st year was good. Contract was a turd. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZBearsFan Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, SLCbear said: Half empty vs half full No way at his age has he hit any pinacle ! and I hear you that there may be concerns over Howard's desire to be great, but I know that he was a bad fit in tampa AND clashed HARD with Arians, yet he still showed that at the very least he is an NFL Starter.. Draft picks are ALL crap shoots ! every single one ! Getting Howard and bringing back another pick in the trade would be a absolutely fantastic. At the very least, he would not be any dropoff from Burton's first yr in Chicago and would stay healthy, learn from JGraham here too ! If we did trade for OJ Howard, what role do you think he’s playing in 2020? Graham isn’t getting $9M guaranteed near the end of his career to be second fiddle at TE in 2020. He’s coming in to play a lot at least for 2020 meaning Howard wouldn’t be getting any more looks in 2020 here than he got in Tampa, and after 2020 he’s out of contract unless his option is picked up by the first week of May. There’s no way anyone can make any kind of statement that Howard hasn’t hit his statistical pinnacle yet and have it be anything other than a guess. Guys top out in production early in their careers all the time. Just look at recent history locally - Mitch may have hit his in 2018 at age 24. Jordan Howard’s 2 peak years came in his first 2 in the league at age 22 and 23. He’s heading into his age 26 season now and we’re a month into FA and he’s not even on a roster. OJ Howard was only under Arians in 2019. He was under Dirk Koetter in 2017 and 2018 and had the same output. Koetter got a career season out of Marcedes Lewis in 2010, was able to find 93/930/8 for Tony Gonzalez in 2012 in an offense also featuring prime Roddy White and Julio Jones and got 57/660/8 from Cameron Brate the year before Howard’s arrival. He unquestionably knows how to utilize good TEs, and he didn’t get any more out of Howard than Arians did. Potential for more remains for Howard which is why I’d still be willing to trade for him but the greatest likelihood at this point is that what he’s been for 3 straight years now is what he’ll be going forward. What he’s been to date has been a player who consistently leaves you wanting more. Edited April 19, 2020 by AZBearsFan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beardown3231 Posted April 19, 2020 Author Share Posted April 19, 2020 2 hours ago, AZBearsFan said: If we did trade for OJ Howard, what role do you think he’s playing in 2020? Graham isn’t getting $9M guaranteed near the end of his career to be second fiddle at TE in 2020. He’s coming in to play a lot at least for 2020 meaning Howard wouldn’t be getting any more looks in 2020 here than he got in Tampa, and after 2020 he’s out of contract unless his option is picked up by the first week of May. There’s no way anyone can make any kind of statement that Howard hasn’t hit his statistical pinnacle yet and have it be anything other than a guess. Guys top out in production early in their careers all the time. Just look at recent history locally - Mitch may have hit his in 2018 at age 24. Jordan Howard’s 2 peak years came in his first 2 in the league at age 22 and 23. He’s heading into his age 26 season now and we’re a month into FA and he’s not even on a roster. OJ Howard was only under Arians in 2019. He was under Dirk Koetter in 2017 and 2018 and had the same output. Koetter got a career season out of Marcedes Lewis in 2010, was able to find 93/930/8 for Tony Gonzalez in 2012 in an offense also featuring prime Roddy White and Julio Jones and got 57/660/8 from Cameron Brate the year before Howard’s arrival. He unquestionably knows how to utilize good TEs, and he didn’t get any more out of Howard than Arians did. Potential for more remains for Howard which is why I’d still be willing to trade for him but the greatest likelihood at this point is that what he’s been for 3 straight years now is what he’ll be going forward. What he’s been to date has been a player who consistently leaves you wanting more. Jordan Howard signed with Miami. Still your point remains. Odds are he never puts up a season again like his first two Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topwop1 Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 Dang I was really looking forward to the Chicago special between Burton and Foles. Can't imagine BD Nick is too happy about this move but if not for his contract I believe this move would have been made long ago. There were rumors Bears tried trading him for a while. Now I expect another TE to be added at some point in the draft because we all know Shaheen sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindyCity Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 Howard plays the Y and Graham plays the U. You would run 2 TEs more like Philly, which with our lacking WR core that may be an okay option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beardown3231 Posted April 19, 2020 Author Share Posted April 19, 2020 2 hours ago, topwop1 said: Dang I was really looking forward to the Chicago special between Burton and Foles. Can't imagine BD Nick is too happy about this move but if not for his contract I believe this move would have been made long ago. There were rumors Bears tried trading him for a while. Now I expect another TE to be added at some point in the draft because we all know Shaheen sucks. Burton is a head case. There would've been no Chicago Special. Nagy needed to run it with Cohen & Miller against the Giants in 2018 because Burton said he couldn't. Glad he's gone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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