Why is Jordan Love a potential first rounder?

[BobbyPhil1781]

8 hours ago, beekay414 said:

What? No **** it's 2020. We're talking the last two seasons he played. Don't be thick.

Isn't "being thick" acting like what he's saying isn't relevant?? 2019 tape >> 2018 tape. People regress all the damn time and he was dreadful against the damn MWC, not really known for elite defenses.

[BobbyPhil1781]

7 hours ago, CWood21 said:

It's really not.  Matt Ryan threw an interception every 34 attempts.  Jordan Love threw an interception every 28 attempts.  It's only irrelevant because it hurts your argument.

It needs to be noted that conference this is happening in. The ACC in football is nothing to write home about but the MWC is full of kids who will be coaching dodgeball at their local high school in 2 years after they graduate. You should be killing those people. Instead, he was throwing it directly at them. Seriously, watch the INT video. He literally threw the ball right to them half the time. That negates the "his team left" or "his coaches left" argument. You should know not to throw the ball to the other team by now. 

 

And that "great 2018 team that left", one guy drafted...... in the 6th round. Let's not pretend they were NFL studs.

Edited April 18, 2020 by JTagg7754

[Trentwannabe]

9 hours ago, Elky said:

Did you not watch that playoff game against Houston, who did everything in their power to throw the game away? Buffalo has improved because of their defense and run game, not because of Josh Allen. He's not a complete and utter disaster, but he's definitely their weak link.

Josh Allen is a huge extension of their run game. That game is over by half time if John Brown doesn't drop a perfect ball or Duke Williams doesn't drop a ball in the endzone.

A 3rd year project QB who was labeled an immediate bust by most being the Bills biggest "weak link" is fine by me. If he improves again this year, the Bills will make some noise. If he regresses or bottoms out then the Bills have a loaded team who just needs a QB. Could be in much worse situations.

As for Love, I haven't watched very much of him but I imagine the situation he goes into will play a big part in how successful he ends up being. But in a QB driven league, guys who have shown the talent and traits will always get the benefit of the doubt from teams.

[deathstar]

If you’re having a hard time processing against college competition, I have a hard time imagining it gets better in the pros. Additionally a lot of the arguments in this thread for Love make me wonder why Fromm, who lost just as much but performed better, is rated so low.

[Forge]

30 minutes ago, deathstar said:

If you’re having a hard time processing against college competition, I have a hard time imagining it gets better in the pros. Additionally a lot of the arguments in this thread for Love make me wonder why Fromm, who lost just as much but performed better, is rated so low.

Fromm has the physical tools of Nick Mullens or Colt McCoy or Cody Kessler. For most, his upside is immediately capped before you even look at the on field product. Love's isn't. NFL loves it's guys who check the physical tools boxes. This has been going on forever. Will Love be a very good NFL quarterback? Odds say probably not, but there's a lot of potential upside there to NFL people and he's actually flashed an ability to be competent in the past. 

[Daniel]

10 hours ago, beekay414 said:

Recency bias rules this website. It's not a shock.

Um, recency bias rules this sport.

2 hours ago, Hunter2_1 said:

To answer the question; it's because he's a QB. 

If you look at the actual product, you see too many red flags for the first round. But because he's a QB with potential upside, people tend to ignore the red flags. They're doing the same with Herbert.

I think this is really it.  Figuring out how high a prospect should be is about figuring out upside vs. red flags, then figuring out how likely those upside traits are likely to be relevant in the NFL vs. the red flags.  And I agree, if you look at those two things side by side, Love has more problems than he does upside traits, but people like who they like, put blinders on, and go get "their guy."  Good GMs do it all the time and it works out for them, so others try and do the same.  Multiply that a thousand times for QBs.

I get why Love is hyped.  I do not get why he is hyped as a first rounder.  There's simply too much risk for a first round pick on him to be a savvy bet if you're being reasonable.

2 hours ago, JTagg7754 said:

Isn't "being thick" acting like what he's saying isn't relevant?? 2019 tape >> 2018 tape. People regress all the damn time and he was dreadful against the damn MWC, not really known for elite defenses.

Agreed.  Matt Barkley is a good example.  Hyped as a top pick, went back for his senior season, and fell apart.  Never did anything in the NFL.

Now, I do think people and teams go too far on this a lot.  This year, I think Raekwon Davis and Rashard Lawrence are both being undervalued because their 2019 tape wasn't as good as their 2018, so I think they're gonna be good grabs for teams late.  I do not think that they are as good as their 2018 tape, but I also think they're better than their 2019 tape.  The same is probably true for Love, but damn, that 2019 tape is awful, and I think his problems are the kind that don't usually get fixed.

Now, he goes to a team with someone like Andy Reid's history of QB development, then there's a much better chance he works out, but on probably 29 teams, he'll be Rex Grossman if they're lucky.

Edited April 18, 2020 by Daniel

[deathstar]

57 minutes ago, Forge said:

Fromm has the physical tools of Nick Mullens or Colt McCoy or Cody Kessler. For most, his upside is immediately capped before you even look at the on field product. Love's isn't. NFL loves it's guys who check the physical tools boxes. This has been going on forever. Will Love be a very good NFL quarterback? Odds say probably not, but there's a lot of potential upside there to NFL people and he's actually flashed an ability to be competent in the past. 

I think this idea that Fromm has no physical tools has gone a little far. I’m under no delusion that he can throw a ball through a wall, but it’s not like he’s got a noodle arm out there. 

[Forge]

Just now, deathstar said:

I think this idea that Fromm has no physical tools has gone a little far. I’m under no delusion that he can throw a ball through a wall, but it’s not like he’s got a noodle arm out there. 

He's pretty capped there and he's shy of those physical gifts being considered "good". There's a sizable difference between what Love has and what Fromm has physically, and that's what a lot of this thread is about. The bias toward physically gifted players regardless of the on field product sometimes. 

[Hunter2_1]

Fromm is solid but unspectacular.  Everything, to me at least, screams game manager. And sometimes, that's all your team needs. 

I don't want him in the first. Same with Love, but for the opposite reasons.

 

[deathstar]

3 minutes ago, Forge said:

He's pretty capped there and he's shy of those physical gifts being considered "good". There's a sizable difference between what Love has and what Fromm has physically, and that's what a lot of this thread is about. The bias toward physically gifted players regardless of the on field product sometimes. 

How do you figure? Plenty of cases in the league of a guys arm getting better by refining footwork and arm mechanics.

[Forge]

3 minutes ago, deathstar said:

How do you figure? Plenty of cases in the league of a guys arm getting better by refining footwork and arm mechanics.

Mainly because I've watched him and I don't see it, and I think that significant improvement in such an area is highly unlikely and often overstated, especially as it relates to improvement via mechanics. Could it improve? Absolutely. Will it ever get to the point where it's better than maybe functional? I don't think so. 

If you think that he can significantly improve his physical traits I won't tell you you're wrong, just going to disagree.

[Chiefer]

God I hope so, then maybe the chiefs can trade back into the 2nd.

[deathstar]

14 minutes ago, Forge said:

Mainly because I've watched him and I don't see it, and I think that significant improvement in such an area is highly unlikely and often overstated, especially as it relates to improvement via mechanics. Could it improve? Absolutely. Will it ever get to the point where it's better than maybe functional? I don't think so. 

If you think that he can significantly improve his physical traits I won't tell you you're wrong, just going to disagree.

I don’t want it to come across as me being a giant Fromm homer, but you think right now he’s only maybe functional? That’s what makes me think this groupthink about his physical tools has gotten a little out of control.

[Forge]

1 minute ago, deathstar said:

I don’t want it to come across as me being a giant Fromm homer, but you think right now he’s only maybe functional? That’s what makes me think this groupthink about his physical tools has gotten a little out of control.

Yeah, I think it's basically "meh / functional". But your personal tier system is your own. I don't know where else you would put him at. Are you going to say he's got a good arm? I don't think so. Would you say average? Honestly, for a starting quarterback I'd say that right now, it's below average...it could maybe get to average with time and work,  but as a starter, I don't think that he would be in that 14-16 range, though in truth I haven't fully broken it down.

So for me, that leaves him basically functional. Now, if you want to say it's average as far as NFL quarterbacks in general go, I'd be more amenable to that, but I don't much care about how he compares against back ups, since that is kind of the point of this entire thing anyway (that I comped him to back ups and called his upside capped, whereas its not with Love, regardless of the latter's ability to hit that mark). 

[Soko]

4 hours ago, JTagg7754 said:

Isn't "being thick" acting like what he's saying isn't relevant?? 2019 tape >> 2018 tape. People regress all the damn time and he was dreadful against the damn MWC, not really known for elite defenses.

There’s a difference between saying 2019>2018 and saying 2018 doesn’t matter, which is 100% the sentiment. I don’t like Love either but pretending like performances from just over a year ago, don’t matter? That’s dumb, especially if you contextualize how much he lost. Darnold had the same problem when he lost players on his offense.