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pwny

With the 9th pick, the Jacksonville Jaguars select CB C.J. Henderson

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13 minutes ago, Tugboat said:

Are we not counting the extra yards given up to Chase with missed tackling in support?  Or uh, probably more importantly...the other ~50 yard TD he completely torched Henderson on with a rub release?  Because...teams aren't going to be allowed to use clever releases against him as a Pro?

https://twitter.com/bradybabin__/status/1251231595752816641?s=20

 

There was plenty of that in Chase killing everyone else too.  He destroyed everyone.  But everyone else also didn't necessarily get drafted 9th overall.

I've watched all of his games, and have definitely seen that play. Teammate literally ran into him if you're talking about the reply. Chase is already ridiculous, give him that and he's going to burn you every time.

I mean, if we're going to take a game where he gets put on an island (like usual at Florida) and keep him to what he did but knock him that hard for a play like that you can. But that doesn't at all affect my opinion or view of him with what I've seen.

He is one of the few corners in this draft that has elite potential as a boundary corner. Crocker's thread who is more reliable/knowledgeable than me goes deeper into it. But I'm perfectly fine taking a guy with elite potential at 9.

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8 minutes ago, .Buzz said:

I've watched all of his games, and have definitely seen that play. Teammate literally got in his way if you're talking about the reply. Chase is already ridiculous, give him that and he's going to burn you every time.

I mean, if we're going to take a game where he gets put on an island (like usual at Florida) and keep him to what he did but knock him that hard for a play like that you can. But that doesn't at all affect my opinion or view of him with what I've seen.

He is one of the few corners in this draft that has elite potential as a boundary corner. Crocker's thread who is more reliable/knowledgeable than me goes deeper into it. But I'm perfectly fine taking a guy with elite potential at 9.

I mean...it's part of the game he played against him.  You're elevating him for "not getting killed like those other chumps"...but he gave up 2 TDs and probably a hundred yards?  Just like others.

Sure, it's a cheeky release and goofed up by his teammate...but you didn't see any of that in Chase's games vs those other guys you're thinking less of for being burned by Chase?  Don't think NFL coordinators are going to bring stuff like that against him?  It's part of the problem with CBs in today's game.  Even the top guys...They're kind of at the mercy of scheme so much of the time.  Both their own defensive scheme...and offensive scheming designed to do stuff exactly like that to neutralize them.  On top of the talent level obviously increasing to where your lockdown guy is going to be facing top cream of the crop college talents most weeks, who also make a living burning DBs.

Stuff like that illustrates my point, about the limitations of the CB position to yield the biggest "premium" impact and solitarily shut down a part of the passing game.

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1 minute ago, Tugboat said:

I mean...it's part of the game he played against him.  You're elevating him for "not getting killed like those other chumps"...but he gave up 2 TDs and probably a hundred yards?  Just like others.

Sure, it's a cheeky release and goofed up by his teammate...but you didn't see any of that in Chase's games vs those other guys you're thinking less of for being burned by Chase?  Don't think NFL coordinators are going to bring stuff like that against him?  It's part of the problem with CBs in today's game.  Even the top guys...They're kind of at the mercy of scheme so much of the time.  Both their own defensive scheme...and offensive scheming designed to do stuff exactly like that to neutralize them.  On top of the talent level obviously increasing to where your lockdown guy is going to be facing top cream of the crop college talents most weeks, who also make a living burning DBs.

Stuff like that illustrates my point, about the limitations of the CB position to yield the biggest "premium" impact and solitarily shut down a part of the passing game.

I don't see any other CBs in this draft I'd feel comfortable to put them in man on another teams #1 past CJ or Okudah. However I see several WRs going into day 2 I still like as potential impact weapons for Minshew, just like the guard, Safety, and RB position which are the big needs for us. Same goes for NT types.

So yes, I think a guy of his skillset and potential of a shut down corner at 9 was plenty justified.

We just disagree. That's fine.

 

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Yeah, I have a hard time faulting a guy for getting burned on a play he got picked by a WR and then got picked by his own teammate when he had recovered. He recovered perfectly from the WR pick, but lost about 3 and a half yards running into his teammate and the ball was out before he recovered.

That's a play that would happen to literally any CB in football history; if a teammate gets in their way, they're not going to be able to cover.

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The upside with him and Chaisson is so high.

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7 minutes ago, .Buzz said:

The upside with him and Chaisson is so high.

Taven had that same upside the analytics has to be supported by tape. This teams ability to identify talent and develop it outside of the just freaks in Ramsey and Allen just isn’t there and to think they really considered him at pick 9 is scary. 

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10 minutes ago, DuvalsKing said:

Taven had that same upside the analytics has to be supported by tape. This teams ability to identify talent and develop it outside of the just freaks in Ramsey and Allen just isn’t there and to think they really considered him at pick 9 is scary. 

Comparing Chaisson and Taven is atrocious.

Both these guys we took showed plenty on tape. Both are hard working big character guys. Who knows if they end up working out but neither are guys like Taven where it was purely off upside. Not to mention Taven shows up quite a bit with those physical tools but his football iq/awareness leaves a ton to be desired thus far.

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9 hours ago, pwny said:

Yeah, I have a hard time faulting a guy for getting burned on a play he got picked by a WR and then got picked by his own teammate when he had recovered. He recovered perfectly from the WR pick, but lost about 3 and a half yards running into his teammate and the ball was out before he recovered.

That's a play that would happen to literally any CB in football history; if a teammate gets in their way, they're not going to be able to cover.

It's not really about "blaming" or "faulting" though, per se.  Like...you combine 1 part elite receiver, 1 part clever and well executed offensive scheme, and 1 part NFL top pick caliber QB...and like you said, that's gonna happen to pretty much any CB.  I just think it's a bit dishonest to basically pretend that didn't happen at all...while talking up how he's the only guy who didn't get "killed" by Chase.  Like...explain it away, put an asterisk beside it, sure.  But it still happened, and was very clearly Henderson glued to Chase.  And things like that still happened to other CBs who got "killed" by Chase and that buzzsaw LSU offense too.

I mean...that kind of stuff is going to happen to pretty much any CB, and it's not going to get easier in the NFL.  It happened to Jalen against certain teams, and it'll happen to anyone.  That's my point, about "shutdown corners" and their value.  Offenses in today's NFL are given so many advantages...and one of them is the ability to abuse play designs like that one or worse, which some teams do extensively.  It's where offense and pass rush are so much more reliable "value" to me, than a Top-10 pick on a CB.

 

I don't really have a big problem with Henderson specifically.  And if he becomes an elite shutdown corner for us, cool.  That's a nice thing to have.  I can easily see the argument that he's the best CB prospect in this draft.  He's got all the traits and talent to be a really good CB, and seems like he should be a less "rock the boat" type of personality in the room, which seems like a good idea at this point.  I'm just not a fan of the positional "value", the way the draft fell, and what it means for other more important/impactful aspects of the team imo.  The treadmill effect of it all, and the same philosophy behind it.

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31 minutes ago, .Buzz said:

Comparing Chaisson and Taven is atrocious.

Both these guys we took showed plenty on tape. Both are hard working big character guys. Who knows if they end up working out but neither are guys like Taven where it was purely off upside. Not to mention Taven shows up quite a bit with those physical tools but his football iq/awareness leaves a ton to be desired thus far.

Yeah.  Much as i'm not the biggest fan of the pick...Henderson is worlds more polished in what he does at this stage coming out, than Taven was.  I mean...Taven coming out, was essentially just an interesting ball of athletic clay.  It wasn't even clear whether he was going to end up a 5T or 3T, and he didn't really have a "craft" as a DLineman, so much as he had some flashes of nasty power and violence to maybe eventually become a more consistently disruptive presence if coached up.

 

But then...Taven wasn't a Top-10 pick either.  So, the standards and expectations shift a bit there.

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So my initials thoughts on the pick:

1. Damn I hated seeing Brown and Simmons go 7 & 8 because either would've been our obvious pick imo.

2. Henderson has #1 potential but realistically there were 3-6 picks I would've been fine with which is why I wanted to trade down but it takes 2 to tango

3. All the "How is he going to tackle Derrick Henry?" comments are infuriatingly annoying. Like if whether or not we can keep Henry in check has more to do with a CB than the front 7, we are boned anyways. As long as he is a willing tackler who cares if he can take on Henry regularly?

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39 minutes ago, JaguarCrazy2832 said:

So my initials thoughts on the pick:

1. Damn I hated seeing Brown and Simmons go 7 & 8 because either would've been our obvious pick imo.

2. Henderson has #1 potential but realistically there were 3-6 picks I would've been fine with which is why I wanted to trade down but it takes 2 to tango

3. All the "How is he going to tackle Derrick Henry?" comments are infuriatingly annoying. Like if whether or not we can keep Henry in check has more to do with a CB than the front 7, we are boned anyways. As long as he is a willing tackler who cares if he can take on Henry regularly?

1.Honestly kinda sounds like they very much would've gone Henderson, even if Simmons had been there.  And even possibly over Brown.

2.Also sounds like they allegedly had a trade in place to move down to 11 that didn't work out, and one to move back to 16 that was still on the table.  But bailed on it because they were afraid they'd lose Henderson/Chaisson/Jeudy.

3.The tackling Henry thing is...kind of hyperbolic.  But the tackling thing is still important.  Even just against the receivers he's tasked with covering.  Broken tackles are how explosive plays happen, and TDs.  Henderson absolutely needs to get better at this, or it's going to be a liability in the NFL, that costs us points.

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1 hour ago, Tugboat said:

1.Honestly kinda sounds like they very much would've gone Henderson, even if Simmons had been there.  And even possibly over Brown.

2.Also sounds like they allegedly had a trade in place to move down to 11 that didn't work out, and one to move back to 16 that was still on the table.  But bailed on it because they were afraid they'd lose Henderson/Chaisson/Jeudy.

3.The tackling Henry thing is...kind of hyperbolic.  But the tackling thing is still important.  Even just against the receivers he's tasked with covering.  Broken tackles are how explosive plays happen, and TDs.  Henderson absolutely needs to get better at this, or it's going to be a liability in the NFL, that costs us points.

1. I'd be pissed if that was the case, if what you say is true im glad it happened the way it did

2. So Chaisson was considered at 9?

3. Tackling his man and tackling a RB on the regular are different

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11 minutes ago, JaguarCrazy2832 said:

1. I'd be pissed if that was the case, if what you say is true im glad it happened the way it did

2. So Chaisson was considered at 9?

3. Tackling his man and tackling a RB on the regular are different

Chaisson was one of the four elite guys on our board Caldwell said, so yes.

I'm sure happy Simmons got taken before us. I would've been upset had we passed.

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