NewAge Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 5 minutes ago, playmaker8267 said: To your first statement: why? You're more well versed in this stuff than I am. I see fWAR referenced frequently here. I think it's a useful benchmark to judge how well a pitcher performs in the three true outcomes but in other regards it lacks the sophistication that exists now. I believe FIP was first introduced in around 2006 (DIPS in 2000) and at that point we didn't have stuff like exit velocity, launch angle, catcher framing, etc. Given the introduction of Statcast, TrackMan, and PitchFX in the decade+ since FIP has been introduced and the analysis that has been conducted, we are able to go further now to analyze pitcher performance. FIP, given its simplicity, still has use as a benchmark, similar to WHIP. FIP is definitely superior to WHIP but should be used in a similar way, as a simple benchmark rather than as a true ERA predictor or fine measurement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mission27 Posted September 26, 2017 Share Posted September 26, 2017 3 hours ago, NewAge said: I think it's a useful benchmark to judge how well a pitcher performs in the three true outcomes but in other regards it lacks the sophistication that exists now. I believe FIP was first introduced in around 2006 (DIPS in 2000) and at that point we didn't have stuff like exit velocity, launch angle, catcher framing, etc. Given the introduction of Statcast, TrackMan, and PitchFX in the decade+ since FIP has been introduced and the analysis that has been conducted, we are able to go further now to analyze pitcher performance. FIP, given its simplicity, still has use as a benchmark, similar to WHIP. FIP is definitely superior to WHIP but should be used in a similar way, as a simple benchmark rather than as a true ERA predictor or fine measurement. Whats your preferred valuation metric tbh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewAge Posted September 26, 2017 Share Posted September 26, 2017 Just now, mission27 said: Whats your preferred valuation metric tbh I think DRA is the most advanced singular metric for pitchers right now. And DRA has Kluber first and Sale third. Those two and Scherzer are far from the rest of the pack. http://www.baseballprospectus.com/sortable/index.php?cid=2233143 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mission27 Posted September 26, 2017 Share Posted September 26, 2017 Just now, NewAge said: I think DRA is the most advanced singular metric for pitchers right now. And DRA has Kluber first and Sale third. Those two and Scherzer are far from the rest of the pack. http://www.baseballprospectus.com/sortable/index.php?cid=2233143 Clayton Kershaw 10th seems bs tbh Give me your pitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewAge Posted September 26, 2017 Share Posted September 26, 2017 6 minutes ago, mission27 said: Clayton Kershaw 10th seems bs tbh Give me your pitch Kershaw is 7th in FIP so it's not too far out there. He was second in DRA last year behind only Jose Fernandez. It takes in a lot of factors that we now have some knowledge of that we didn't have a decade ago, including catcher framing. It also factors in stuff like opponent quality, park factors, umpire tendencies, platoon matchups, and defense quality and even goes down to game factors, base/out situations, and the weather. http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=26195 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mission27 Posted September 26, 2017 Share Posted September 26, 2017 Just now, NewAge said: Kershaw is 7th in FIP so it's not too far out there. He was second in DRA last year behind only Jose Fernandez. It takes in a lot of factors that we now have some knowledge of that we didn't have a decade ago, including catcher framing. It also factors in stuff like opponent quality, park factors, umpire tendencies, platoon matchups, and defense quality and even goes down to game factors, base/out situations, and the weather. Sounds like overfitting tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buno67 Posted September 26, 2017 Share Posted September 26, 2017 On 9/25/2017 at 6:00 PM, playmaker8267 said: Sale is still my Cy Young award winner, although if Kluber wins it would be hard to be upset. For those who are of the mindset that it's Kluber and it's not close, I invite you to try this thought exercise commonly used in the MVP discussion: Which team would be worse off without their Cy Young candidate? The Red Sox would not be winning the division without Sale. Their record in games Sale does not start is 69-55, which puts them at a winning percentage behind the Yankees' winning percentage. In contrast, without Kluber, the Indians are still playing .609 ball and still moonwalking to the AL Central title. Just something to consider. BTW, Sale's lead in fWAR is still 8.2 to 7.1, which is not only a huge lead in volume, but he also leads in fWAR on a per inning basis. I dont know, yeah right now the rest of the Indians staff is pitching great but I dont know how well they hold up with no Kluber. Kluber has been wonders for the bull pen too. Dude has been a straight workhorse. Specially at the right time too. The bullpen for the Indians should be ready for the playoffs and no overworked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NateDawg Posted September 27, 2017 Author Share Posted September 27, 2017 After yesterday, both pitchers seem to be done until postseason. Here are your end of season stats. Kluber: 18-4, 3 shutouts, 2.27 ERA, 262 Ks, 198.2 IP Sale: 17-8, 2.90 ERA, 308 Ks, 214.1 IP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buno67 Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 On 9/27/2017 at 6:42 AM, NateDawg said: After yesterday, both pitchers seem to be done until postseason. Here are your end of season stats. Kluber: 18-4, 3 shutouts, 2.27 ERA, 262 Ks, 198.2 IP Sale: 17-8, 2.90 ERA, 308 Ks, 214.1 IP Now let’s compare only their 2nd half stats and stats over the past two months. Kluber has been the most dominating pitcher in the AL during that time span. Kluber 11-1 1.79ERA 3.7 WAR 139Ks Sale 6-4 3.2ERA 2.4 WAR 130Ks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mse326 Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 22 minutes ago, buno67 said: Now let’s compare only their 2nd half stats and stats over the past two months. Kluber has been the most dominating pitcher in the AL during that time span. Kluber 11-1 1.79ERA 3.7 WAR 139Ks Sale 6-4 3.2ERA 2.4 WAR 130Ks What's your point? CYA is an award for the year not a half There are plenty of good arguments for Kluber. This is not one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsoxsuck05 Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 22 minutes ago, mse326 said: What's your point? CYA is an award for the year not a half There are plenty of good arguments for Kluber. This is not one of them. I bet it's factored into the vote. Recency bias is strong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buno67 Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 50 minutes ago, mse326 said: What's your point? CYA is an award for the year not a half There are plenty of good arguments for Kluber. This is not one of them. I was just saying how dominating kluber was over the 2nd half. Klubers 2nd Half performance is def a good argument. If his 2nd half performance wasn’t as dominating, he wouldn’t be in contention for the cy young Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buno67 Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 31 minutes ago, redsoxsuck05 said: I bet it's factored into the vote. Recency bias is strong It truly is, specially when one has been lights out and the other hasn’t... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsGuy82 Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 Kluber should be getting the CY over Sale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texansfan713 Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 On 9/27/2017 at 5:42 AM, NateDawg said: After yesterday, both pitchers seem to be done until postseason. Here are your end of season stats. Kluber: 18-4, 3 shutouts, 2.27 ERA, 262 Ks, 198.2 IP Sale: 17-8, 2.90 ERA, 308 Ks, 214.1 IP Sale has one more start left vs the Astros on Sunday probably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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