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3.94 - Josiah Deguara [TE; Cincinnati]


CWood21

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14 minutes ago, MrBobGray said:

He's a Vitale that can actually be used as a receiver. 

Ben Fennell had a cool clip of Vitale in the passing game and he comes out as a lead blocker from I formation on a play the defense has seen before
So the defender avoids Vitale, but instead of Vitale trying to block the defender, he runs right past him for a nice catch.
I tried to embed the video, but its beyond my limited skills

https://cdn.theathletic.com/app/uploads/2019/10/22225740/8-VITALE-PASS-GAME_1.mp4?_=8

 

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I especially like that before the draft people were saying how "off" the media was on prospects and the teams with real scouting departments would be way different. Then our team is way different than the media and we think the media was right anyways.

Not saying our guys will work out. But uts very possible our guys wouldnt have been there in the next round.  If you think he has a little of hernandez in him without the desire to murder, you probably feel alright with that in the spot.

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4 minutes ago, Shanedorf said:

Ben Fennell had a cool clip of Vitale in the passing game and he comes out as a lead blocker from I formation on a play the defense has seen before
So the defender avoids Vitale, but instead of Vitale trying to block the defender, he runs right past him for a nice catch.
I tried to embed the video, but its beyond my limited skills

https://cdn.theathletic.com/app/uploads/2019/10/22225740/8-VITALE-PASS-GAME_1.mp4?_=8

 

I think what mr bob is saying is that you can flex him out wide and the defense will have to respect that. Not that Vitale couldnt catch at all, but he's not a route runner.

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43 minutes ago, MrBobGray said:

I don't think Deguara is going to be the player a lot of people expect.  Or at least I hope not.  He's not really a great blocker; he's very willing but even at his best he rarely drives anyone out of their gap.  He's also a nice athlete, but he's not a stud and he's a bit undersized.  I think on paper it's easy to see why people looked at him as a later round pick, especially in the H-back/FB role which isn't really a premium anyway.

But I think it's pretty obvious why they picked him; he's a FB/H-Back type that you can play at any WR position and feel OK about it.  He was an extremely productive receiver at a very good high school program, and played a ton of his snaps split out in college, and it shows.  He's not going to beat a lot of corners unless it's a size ball, but he's comfortable running routes from just about anywhere, and he can catch the ball over his shoulder and on sideline routes.  There's just not a ton of that body/skill set combo out there.

The advantage of a guy like Deguara is you can play him as a lead blocker, or you can motion him out and play him at any WR/TE position if you have a 1v1 match-up or good zone beater.  He's a Vitale that can actually be used as a receiver.  How many different ways can I find to say this.  So many probably, but I'll stop here.

See, I would feel a lot better about this pick if I thought he really was showing an ability to track it. 

My concern is that we drafted a guy that other teams will be fairly confident moving an ILB out to the boundary to cover (as confident as anything is doing that kind of thing). 

If we drafted Vitale who is a step better as a receiver in the third round, I'm going to be kinda irritated.

I think this was very much a pick where we thought there were 60 guys who we felt comfortable could contribute and this dude was #58. 

We choose the dude we felt same with rather than one we thought was a lottery ticket. Nothing wrong with that, other than the lack of star potential, but realistically how many of those actually land?

Edited by AlexGreen#20
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5 hours ago, Shanedorf said:

Ben Fennell had a cool clip of Vitale in the passing game and he comes out as a lead blocker from I formation on a play the defense has seen before
So the defender avoids Vitale, but instead of Vitale trying to block the defender, he runs right past him for a nice catch.
I tried to embed the video, but its beyond my limited skills

https://cdn.theathletic.com/app/uploads/2019/10/22225740/8-VITALE-PASS-GAME_1.mp4?_=8

 

Honestly though, Vitale faking a block and running by the defender isn't much different than Vitale trying to block for real.

Edited by MaximusGluteus
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4 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

See, I would feel a lot better about this pick if I thought he really was showing an ability to track it. 

My concern is that we drafted a guy that other teams will be fairly confident moving an ILB out to the boundary to cover (as confident as anything is doing that kind of thing). 

If we drafted Vitale who is a step better as a receiver in the third round, I'm going to be kinda irritated.

I think this was very much a pick where we thought there were 60 guys who we felt comfortable could contribute and this dude was #58. 

We choose the dude we felt same with rather than one we thought was a lottery ticket. Nothing wrong with that, other than the lack of star potential, but realistically how many of those actually land?

I mean I'll be real I think the true likelihood is you're going to end up irritated or worse with the pick.  I have zero faith in coaches to use this type of player well enough to justify their theorertical interest in them.  I actually do think Deguara runs routes well enough and knows how to set up his routes on defenders.  The difference between him and Vitale is he put up 3K yards and 42 TDs his last two years of prep and Vitale was a RB; I'll take the guy who knows how to attack someone who's uncomfortable dropping in man over a guy who's equally uncomfortable attacking him but a little faster.  But realistically how many plays do you think they'll get value from this type of player?  He really needs to ball out on some vertical routes somehow, anyhow, to make this pick make sense.  If they can get him attacking up the seam from 12/21 frequently enough I think he's got a shot to put up some numbers, provided Aaron learns to throw the middle. 

I do think this is the pick I've changed the most on since draft day.  I still like the player and am excited to see what he could be.  My hope is basically a John Kuhn that occasionally hits a seam route for 40 or a screen for 20.  But I just think if you're giving odds, given the position he plays and how rarely it sees good use, plus his relatively moderate athletic talent and Aaron's general avoidance of the position in recent years, and I think it's hard to imagine him living up to that pick in value.

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13 hours ago, MrBobGray said:

I think it's pretty obvious why they picked him

I heard on the radio a couple of weeks ago that MLF and the coach at Cincinnati are good friends and he gave Lafleur a great endorsement on how great this kid will be at the pro level. So it now makes sense why they reached for him.

I doubt if this kid was scouted by Gute, he likes big TE's. Just as last year when they drafted Jenkins this here is the same scenario where Matt used his college connections to find a player to fit his system.

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8 hours ago, MrBobGray said:

I have zero faith in coaches to use this type of player well enough to justify their theoretical interest in them.

This is where I was going with my vitale post above - showing that MLF already has FB passing concepts in his offense
Ben Fennell loves this ****

 

 

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11 hours ago, MrBobGray said:

I mean I'll be real I think the true likelihood is you're going to end up irritated or worse with the pick.  I have zero faith in coaches to use this type of player well enough to justify their theorertical interest in them.  I actually do think Deguara runs routes well enough and knows how to set up his routes on defenders.  The difference between him and Vitale is he put up 3K yards and 42 TDs his last two years of prep and Vitale was a RB; I'll take the guy who knows how to attack someone who's uncomfortable dropping in man over a guy who's equally uncomfortable attacking him but a little faster.  But realistically how many plays do you think they'll get value from this type of player?  He really needs to ball out on some vertical routes somehow, anyhow, to make this pick make sense.  If they can get him attacking up the seam from 12/21 frequently enough I think he's got a shot to put up some numbers, provided Aaron learns to throw the middle. 

I do think this is the pick I've changed the most on since draft day.  I still like the player and am excited to see what he could be.  My hope is basically a John Kuhn that occasionally hits a seam route for 40 or a screen for 20.  But I just think if you're giving odds, given the position he plays and how rarely it sees good use, plus his relatively moderate athletic talent and Aaron's general avoidance of the position in recent years, and I think it's hard to imagine him living up to that pick in value.

DeGuara also feels like he will be a plus STer across multiple sets. There's value there as well, even for a 3rd round pick. Feels like he's a guy who will be in the league for awhile, and that's attractive anywhere in the draft, especially when 93 theoretically better prospects are already gone.

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32 minutes ago, incognito_man said:

DeGuara also feels like he will be a plus STer across multiple sets. There's value there as well, even for a 3rd round pick. Feels like he's a guy who will be in the league for awhile, and that's attractive anywhere in the draft, especially when 93 theoretically better prospects are already gone.

Yeah I don't see him busting as a pick by any means.  He's the kind of guy you'll get plenty of game day reps from.  Question is just whether you'll get the caliber of reps you could have gotten from a 6th - UDFA or if they'll find ways to use the things he does better than most enough to make him a valuable piece.  I'm not giving up on it, just wish I felt better about the chances.

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4 hours ago, Shanedorf said:

This is where I was going with my vitale post above - showing that MLF already has FB passing concepts in his offense
Ben Fennell loves this ****

 

 

I'll be honest I missed this because I thought it was the same as the Vitale clips above.  I've watched all of Vitale's big catches a few times as I like FBs in general and there's only a few of them anyway, but this kind of stuff is even better to see.  Most FBs can fake a lead and leak into the flats, fewer can fake the lead and run the wheel/seam route, and even fewer you want actually lined up in the wing/slot.  Whatever else Deguara provides, he's a perfect fit for a role that does this stuff often.  My question is whether MLF will call this stuff enough with him to be worth it.  I know he has it but they rarely used Vitale; it sure seems like he just didn't provide what they needed given they let him walk and drafted a 3rd round replacement but until we see the games you never know.  So much goes into offensive game planning that often a lot of this clever stuff ends up getting cut; hopefully that's not the case here.

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14 minutes ago, MrBobGray said:

Yeah I don't see him busting as a pick by any means.  He's the kind of guy you'll get plenty of game day reps from.  Question is just whether you'll get the caliber of reps you could have gotten from a 6th - UDFA or if they'll find ways to use the things he does better than most enough to make him a valuable piece.  I'm not giving up on it, just wish I felt better about the chances.

Not disagreeing - just wanted to point out there some "floor" safety with him as well that probably makes you feel better about using a top 100 pick on him.

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The effectiveness of the offense as a whole makes a big difference.  If you're grinding out lost and lots of first downs, and running a lot of offensive plays, you've got more chance to have Deguara functioning as a run-blocker a couple of times, and having the plays still work...  Then when he "misses" a block and goes out for a pass, it's more deceptive.  But setting up stuff like that, and having opportunities, depend on running a lot of plays.  Which depends on the non-tricky run plays being effective and stressing the defense, and causing them to sell out to stop the run.  And having lots of plays depends on the QB converting on a lot of passes, 3rd down conversions included.  The better the run game is and the passing game is, the more opportunity to do tricky stuff.  

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On 5/11/2020 at 8:22 PM, coachbuns said:

Nothing suggests any of those players would have been there in any of those rounds.  Packers wanted them for their system and took them;  maybe higher than some thought/predicted but who knows wanted them to that was drafting ahead of the Packers.  Being at the very bottom of each round doesn't make for some players getting to them. 

Deguara had a 7th round grade on him. C'mon...this is Richard Rodgers all over again, except this guy will actually have a role in which he'll be able to produce despite it not necessarily showing up in the box score.

 

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1 hour ago, Joe said:

Deguara had a 7th round grade on him. C'mon...this is Richard Rodgers all over again, except this guy will actually have a role in which he'll be able to produce despite it not necessarily showing up in the box score.

 

The Packers had a 3rd round grade on Deguara. Same as the Patriots had a 3rd round grade Asiasi and most places had him in the 6-7th. A routine pick at TE in round 2-3, Hunter Bryant went undrafted. Sounds like the media's perception of grade is irrelevant.

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