The QB Thread: Everything Carr, Stidham and beyond...

[drfrey13]

1 hour ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

"Cut him for Jamis, Fitztrash, Taylor or Foles", "The losses are all Carr's fault" and "trade him for a 2nd"  are some of my favorites I'll remember for years LOL 

I think it is safe to say that the Miami Dolphins were one of the least talented teams in NFL history and traded away everyone who had value.  Devante parker was easily their best player last year and you could argue Zay Jones is a better WR.  Fitzpatrick's stats, if that is how you want to measure, were pretty close to Carr's.

Ryan Fitzpatrick QB	GP	CMP	ATT	CMP%	YDS	AVG	YDS/G	LNG	TD	INT	SACK	SYL	QBR	RTG
	15	311	502	62	3529	7	251.5	51	20	13	40	209	64.7	85.5
Derek Carr QB	GP	CMP	ATT	CMP%	YDS	AVG	YDS/G	LNG	TD	INT	SACK	SYL	QBR	RTG
	16	361	513	70.4	4,054	7.9	258.5	75	21	8	29	184	63.7	100.8

I am not going to argue who is better but if you want to make comments like he is trash at least be able to make a solid comparison how he is clearly worse then Carr.  Fitz had a new system (How many has he had to learn in his career), coach, zero talent, ....etc.  Carr had a better defense, WRs, TE's, O-line, and RBs.  How many of Carr's excuses apply to Fitz and you can argue he would have had better stats if he played full time.  Remember that he also had to deal with the coaching staff trying to see what they had in Rosen.  And he was also his teams top rusher.  Sorry but I still believe this team would have been more successful with Fitzpatrick than Carr since Gruden arrived.  Fitz fights for his team and trusts his teammates to a fault.  Probably why Parker looked like a Pro Bowl level WR last year.  He makes people better around him.  Carr needs players around him to make him look better.  From a team perspective Carr lead the Raiders to 313 point season while giving 10 pass attempts to his backup and a Fitz lead Dolphins team scored 306 while he had to give up 113 pass attempts.  

[Darbsk]

20 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

I think it is safe to say that the Miami Dolphins were one of the least talented teams in NFL history and traded away everyone who had value.  Devante parker was easily their best player last year and you could argue Zay Jones is a better WR.  Fitzpatrick's stats, if that is how you want to measure, were pretty close to Carr's.

Ryan Fitzpatrick QB	GP	CMP	ATT	CMP%	YDS	AVG	YDS/G	LNG	TD	INT	SACK	SYL	QBR	RTG
	15	311	502	62	3529	7	251.5	51	20	13	40	209	64.7	85.5
Derek Carr QB	GP	CMP	ATT	CMP%	YDS	AVG	YDS/G	LNG	TD	INT	SACK	SYL	QBR	RTG
	16	361	513	70.4	4,054	7.9	258.5	75	21	8	29	184	63.7	100.8

No I dont think you could argue Zay Jones is a better WR than DeVante Parker reasonably.

I like Fitzpatrick, he's a great bridge type QB but there is no way he us as good as Carr in terms of actual QB play. I simply dont think an argument can be made for him. Is he more aggressive? Yes. Is he possibly more exciting to watch? Probably. Does he deserve kudos for playing well in a bad situation? Absolutely, but I cant see any way he can be argued to be a better overall QB.  

[drfrey13]

2 hours ago, Darbsk said:

No I dont think you could argue Zay Jones is a better WR than DeVante Parker reasonably.

I like Fitzpatrick, he's a great bridge type QB but there is no way he us as good as Carr in terms of actual QB play. I simply dont think an argument can be made for him. Is he more aggressive? Yes. Is he possibly more exciting to watch? Probably. Does he deserve kudos for playing well in a bad situation? Absolutely, but I cant see any way he can be argued to be a better overall QB.  

My point was statistical measurement since that is what they used.  Before Oakland and before Fitz this is the per game averages of the 2 WRs.

GP	REC	TGTS	YDS	TD
53	3.1	5.4	41.8	0.17
GP	REC	TGTS	YDS	TD
36	2.5	5.4	28.8	0.25

 

With Carr Zay had 

10

2

2.7

14.7

0

 

With Fitz Parker had

16

4.5

8

75

0.56

 

This is with Josh Rosen taking 18% of the snaps and doing almost nothing with it.

 

Overall point is you can not just go off stats.  I believe Carr is a more physically gifted QB by a mile but I do not like where he is between the ears and especially when it counts the most.  Even with his physical deficiencies I do believe Fitz performs better in Gruden's system which has been my stance the entire time.  Not that he is a better QB than Carr.  I would also take Parker over Jones in a heartbeat.  I was actually angry when he decided to sign before FA started because he would have been my #1 offensive target.

Edited July 4, 2020 by drfrey13

[Darbsk]

1 hour ago, drfrey13 said:

My point was statistical measurement since that is what they used.  Before Oakland and before Fitz this is the per game averages of the 2 WRs.

GP	REC	TGTS	YDS	TD
53	3.1	5.4	41.8	0.17
GP	REC	TGTS	YDS	TD
36	2.5	5.4	28.8	0.25

 

With Carr Zay had 

10

2

2.7

14.7

0

 

With Fitz Parker had

16

4.5

8

75

0.56

 

This is with Josh Rosen taking 18% of the snaps and doing almost nothing with it.

 

Overall point is you can not just go off stats.  I believe Carr is a more physically gifted QB by a mile but I do not like where he is between the ears and especially when it counts the most.  Even with his physical deficiencies I do believe Fitz performs better in Gruden's system which has been my stance the entire time.  Not that he is a better QB than Carr.  I would also take Parker over Jones in a heartbeat.  I was actually angry when he decided to sign before FA started because he would have been my #1 offensive target.

I really like Fitz, enjoy watching him play but in the Raiders offence last season I think he doesn't have the discipline Carr has, he might have slung a few more touchdowns, would certainly have been more exciting but I cant see us winning more than 5 games with the inconsistency and racking up the turnovers. I actually think Fitz and Winston are poor fits for us and what we seem to be building towards. Taylor is quite similar I feel to Mariota and would operate around a similar level and probably Foles would be the best of the 4 mentioned above specifically for us.

Its so easy to not appreciate what you've got until its gone but I think Carr plays very well this upcoming season. We've not made it easy for him but I think this year could be the acid test as it looks on paper like the excuses of poor supporting cast cannot be used. I just hope the coaches are up to the task. 

[drfrey13]

23 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

I really like Fitz, enjoy watching him play but in the Raiders offence last season I think he doesn't have the discipline Carr has, he might have slung a few more touchdowns, would certainly have been more exciting but I cant see us winning more than 5 games with the inconsistency and racking up the turnovers. I actually think Fitz and Winston are poor fits for us and what we seem to be building towards. Taylor is quite similar I feel to Mariota and would operate around a similar level and probably Foles would be the best of the 4 mentioned above specifically for us.

Its so easy to not appreciate what you've got until its gone but I think Carr plays very well this upcoming season. We've not made it easy for him but I think this year could be the acid test as it looks on paper like the excuses of poor supporting cast cannot be used. I just hope the coaches are up to the task. 

Every excuse given for Carr's shortcoming have been faced by Fitz and he has still kept it together mentally.  I Carr regains his ability it will be from getting over the mental hurdle of getting hit.  Usually guys do not come back from that.  Fitz has had some bad games with INTs but when you look at the overall numbers it is not bad.  He is very average when it comes to TOs.  since Carr came into the league he has 68 INTs to 62 games started.  Not a great number but workable in the right system.  I would like to get a better QB than both as I wanted Fitz as a backup.  I want to be excited and entertained when I watch a game.  It is suppose to be entertaining.

[Darbsk]

1 minute ago, drfrey13 said:

Every excuse given for Carr's shortcoming have been faced by Fitz and he has still kept it together mentally.  I Carr regains his ability it will be from getting over the mental hurdle of getting hit.  Usually guys do not come back from that.  Fitz has had some bad games with INTs but when you look at the overall numbers it is not bad.  He is very average when it comes to TOs.  since Carr came into the league he has 68 INTs to 62 games started.  Not a great number but workable in the right system.  I would like to get a better QB than both as I wanted Fitz as a backup.  I want to be excited and entertained when I watch a game.  It is suppose to be entertaining.

Fair points, I guess Id rather win 6 - 3 in a defensive slog than lose 41 - 43 in a game of the year. Like I said, I like Fitz and he has played well at times in bad situations and I credit him for that. Carr I credit with some mental toughness as without that he wouldn't have put together so many comeback wins for us nor been able to produce when he injured his hand or back. For me, he's shown courage, just wish he'd be a little more aggressive at certain times. He needs to find the balance for me. I feel it more likely he does that if we provide him with the right environment and support. Can we get that extra 10% from him now? Is the golden question 😀

[drfrey13]

26 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

Fair points, I guess Id rather win 6 - 3 in a defensive slog than lose 41 - 43 in a game of the year. Like I said, I like Fitz and he has played well at times in bad situations and I credit him for that. Carr I credit with some mental toughness as without that he wouldn't have put together so many comeback wins for us nor been able to produce when he injured his hand or back. For me, he's shown courage, just wish he'd be a little more aggressive at certain times. He needs to find the balance for me. I feel it more likely he does that if we provide him with the right environment and support. Can we get that extra 10% from him now? Is the golden question 😀

There are no excuses for anyone this year.  I hope they play well and if it is Carr or Mariota they succeed.  If not we better be looking into other options next year.

[Humble_Beast]

No way Zay Jones and Devante Parker are in the same league lol. Parker is a WR1 who has had problems staying healthy. Finally was healthy last year and put it all together on a bad team. 

[LeonKennedy]

On 2020-06-09 at 9:41 PM, agarcia34 said:

 

As much as i'm going to miss the Coliseum, the Vegas valley is gonna be a great look for this team.

[drfrey13]

10 hours ago, Humble_Beast said:

No way Zay Jones and Devante Parker are in the same league lol. Parker is a WR1 who has had problems staying healthy. Finally was healthy last year and put it all together on a bad team. 

Maybe go back and reread what I said on the subject.  Nobody said Jones was even close to Parker. lol

[jimkelly02]

On 7/3/2020 at 1:48 PM, drfrey13 said:

Devante parker was easily their best player last year and you could argue Zay Jones is a better WR. 

Im not trying to prove you wrong, but as someone who didn’t get involved in this discussion and went back and read your posts it sounded like you said Jones is equally to If not a more talented/better WR.  Idk if you just wrote one thing and meant another (I’ve done that before) but that’s just how it read to me at least and within the context of your comparison of Carr to Fitz it 

2 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

Maybe go back and reread what I said on the subject.  Nobody said Jones was even close to Parker. lol

Also Fitz’s stats aren’t a real good comparison to make versus any QB because that team was always losing so badly in soooo many games that defenses went to prevent Defense so often.  Fitzpatrick throughout his career has had this effect I can’t fully quantify but he’s a gunslinger who can come out any weak and tear it up with 4 TDs or suck it up with 4 INTs.

He’s THE ideal backup because he can actually win you games (versus other offensive players stepping up and/or the defense contributing most to the win).... but he’s a pretty poor starter as he’s only had one season with the Jets (2015) with a winning record... most seasons he’s 6-10 or worse.

[drfrey13]

10 hours ago, jimkelly02 said:

Im not trying to prove you wrong, but as someone who didn’t get involved in this discussion and went back and read your posts it sounded like you said Jones is equally to If not a more talented/better WR.  Idk if you just wrote one thing and meant another (I’ve done that before) but that’s just how it read to me at least and within the context of your comparison of Carr to Fitz it 

Also Fitz’s stats aren’t a real good comparison to make versus any QB because that team was always losing so badly in soooo many games that defenses went to prevent Defense so often.  Fitzpatrick throughout his career has had this effect I can’t fully quantify but he’s a gunslinger who can come out any weak and tear it up with 4 TDs or suck it up with 4 INTs.

He’s THE ideal backup because he can actually win you games (versus other offensive players stepping up and/or the defense contributing most to the win).... but he’s a pretty poor starter as he’s only had one season with the Jets (2015) with a winning record... most seasons he’s 6-10 or worse.

 

The argument that Parker and Jones are on the same level was based upon just using stats.  I could not careless if Jones is on the team this year but I would have made Parker my #1 priority in free agency this year.  The original point I was trying to make is Frankie's reaction to Raidersareone's post about Carr.  Frankie believes these stats somehow absolve Carr of responsibility for the failures of this team.  I was trying to point out how I could use stats in the reverse in a clearly stupid way.  So overall first, Carr is a better QB then Fitz but I would like Fitz more on this team as a backup then Carr as a starter.  Second Jones is in no way close to the talent Parker is but if you use stats before 2019 you can make an argument they are close.  Third using the Jones/Parker comparison you can take it a step further using stats that Fitz makes WR better while Carr causes them to regress.  None of these statements of course prove anything on there own just the same way Raidersareone's post proves Carr is good, better than other QBs, or not the problem with this team.  The post makes it seem like Carr had one of the best seasons ever for a QB when if you watched the games last year I would say it was a below average year for a QB.  Hope I am proven wrong next year but right now I would say Carr is not the main reason why we lost games but at the same time he is one of the biggest reasons why we did not win more games.  I really wish we could have signed a better back up to see what they cold do if Carr "appears" to struggle.  Is the weak link Carr, Gruden, Guenther, or talent?  So hard to isolate the variable.

 

On 7/2/2020 at 11:04 PM, RaidersAreOne said:

 

 

On 7/3/2020 at 8:20 AM, Frankie2Gunz said:

"Cut him for Jamis, Fitztrash, Taylor or Foles", "The losses are all Carr's fault" and "trade him for a 2nd"  are some of my favorites I'll remember for years LOL 

 

[Darbsk]

1 hour ago, drfrey13 said:

Third using the Jones/Parker comparison you can take it a step further using stats that Fitz makes WR better while Carr causes them to regress.  None of these statements of course prove anything on there own just the same way Raidersareone's post proves Carr is good, better than other QBs, or not the problem with this team.  The post makes it seem like Carr had one of the best seasons ever for a QB when if you watched the games last year I would say it was a below average year for a QB

I understand what you're saying here and the argument that could potentially be made but that would be ignoring how Crabtree fared with Carr aswell as guys like Roberts, Holmes and Waller. Crabtree was rejuvenated under Carr, Roberts did nothing after leaving and looked half decent before he got his extension, Holmes disappeared after leaving - I understand those two were average to bad but the point is Carr got production from them when they didn't produce anything really elsewhere. Waller has suddenly become a Pro Bowl TE out of nowhere with Carr. Now, we can say well that's down to Waller sorting his life out but we could just as easily say Parker with the Phins finally got healthy and figured things out rather than Fitz inspired any great breaking out. I dont think we can say for sure that one QB makes receivers worse and the other better.

[jimkelly02]

1 hour ago, drfrey13 said:

 

The argument that Parker and Jones are on the same level was based upon just using stats.  I could not careless if Jones is on the team this year but I would have made Parker my #1 priority in free agency this year.  The original point I was trying to make is Frankie's reaction to Raidersareone's post about Carr.  Frankie believes these stats somehow absolve Carr of responsibility for the failures of this team.  I was trying to point out how I could use stats in the reverse in a clearly stupid way.  So overall first, Carr is a better QB then Fitz but I would like Fitz more on this team as a backup then Carr as a starter.  Second Jones is in no way close to the talent Parker is but if you use stats before 2019 you can make an argument they are close.  Third using the Jones/Parker comparison you can take it a step further using stats that Fitz makes WR better while Carr causes them to regress.  None of these statements of course prove anything on there own just the same way Raidersareone's post proves Carr is good, better than other QBs, or not the problem with this team.  The post makes it seem like Carr had one of the best seasons ever for a QB when if you watched the games last year I would say it was a below average year for a QB.  Hope I am proven wrong next year but right now I would say Carr is not the main reason why we lost games but at the same time he is one of the biggest reasons why we did not win more games.  I really wish we could have signed a better back up to see what they cold do if Carr "appears" to struggle.  Is the weak link Carr, Gruden, Guenther, or talent?  So hard to isolate the variable.

I have no skin in the game in the Jones/Parker “comparison” ... literally could care less.... and it’s obvious you didn’t really care too much from the beginning either.... it was just one aspect of your post....

I think your response to my post gave the clarification the other people needed to not misunderstand what you were saying.

thanks for clarifying

[drfrey13]

18 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

I understand what you're saying here and the argument that could potentially be made but that would be ignoring how Crabtree fared with Carr aswell as guys like Roberts, Holmes and Waller. Crabtree was rejuvenated under Carr, Roberts did nothing after leaving and looked half decent before he got his extension, Holmes disappeared after leaving - I understand those two were average to bad but the point is Carr got production from them when they didn't produce anything really elsewhere. Waller has suddenly become a Pro Bowl TE out of nowhere with Carr. Now, we can say well that's down to Waller sorting his life out but we could just as easily say Parker with the Phins finally got healthy and figured things out rather than Fitz inspired any great breaking out. I dont think we can say for sure that one QB makes receivers worse and the other better.

This is an example of why you should not just look at stats.  How you rate relative to your teammates has so much to do with how much opportunity you get which is the biggest aspect of statistical output.  This is what I like to call the Nnamdi effect.  Whether Nnamdi was great or not did not matter because he was so much better than his teammates.  Did apposing QBs not look his way because their was no chance for a completion or was it that you could complete 70% of your passes throwing to the other side of the field.  You would have to watch the game instead of seeing that he was only thrown at a handful of times a year for a couple years.  When he left to Phi was it the system or that the CBs opposite from him were closer to his level so he was tested more and exposed.  No way of knowing without watching the games. Eye test + stats + understanding what was being attempted.