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The QB Thread: Everything Carr, Mariota and beyond


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2 hours ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

Renfrow is a good slot. Ruggs will take attention off Waller at the very least. Brown is a proven receiver with multiple 1000 yard seasons who can be a solid 2. It's like last year. Edwards is still a mystery but definitely flashed when he got playing time. The Raiders offense is a basketball team. Each guy has a different role and can do it well. They were better than the sum of their parts last year for a reason. Plus Moreau is healthy and we've added Drake to give us a top 3 RB tandem in the league. I'm not worried about the offense.

Only James and Leatherwood are question marks on the OL. The other guys are all proven starters.

I also think the run game could see an uptick because Jackson and Hudson and our revolving door at right tackle were miserable blockers TBH. That could help the pass game.

 I am not a fan of PFF but they just rated Hudson #1 and James the worst.  The common denominator between them is that we paid both of them for the upcoming year.  Incognito is a question mark because of injury, age, and he is still crazy.  Leatherwood is a LT playing RT for the first time after he already had question marks about being a consistent player at Alabama.  Good is a solid RG but is not a top player.  Miller has the chance to become a pro bowl level player but he is not there yet.  So we have 3 question marks, 1 average player, and 1 above average player.  I wonder what could go wrong when we know we have a QB that will pack it in if he is not getting good protection.  Even Frankie would agree because why would Carr risk it.  Brown had 1 1,000 yard season 2 years ago and 1 in 2015.  The other four years he has averaged under 500 yards.  He also looked bad last year so if I had to bet I would say he gets around 500 yards this year.  Snead has broken 500 yards once in the past 4 years and has never been a full time starter.  Drake has never eclipsed 500 yards and averages less than 250 a season receiving.  Ruggs and Edwards have promise but shown very little.  The most reliable WR we have is a small slow slot WR known for converting 3rd downs.  Now I want to see what Ruggs and Edwards have but to say I am confident in our WR room would be a lie.  I would have felt much better if we would have taken the money from Brown and Snead and signed a player like Marvin Jones.  If he was healthy I would have rather had TW or paid more for JuJu.  I was against signing JuJu also but I did not realize what we where going to try to put out there.  I love moreau but he is not going to put up crazy numbers.  He is just a solid all around TE that is good in the redzone.  So a questionable o-line, a QB that panicks and does not let plays develop, and a WR corp that will probably not be good at getting open quickly.  Now that I think of it maybe Drake will put up big receiving numbers.

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53 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

 I am not a fan of PFF but they just rated Hudson #1 and James the worst.  The common denominator between them is that we paid both of them for the upcoming year.  Incognito is a question mark because of injury, age, and he is still crazy.  Leatherwood is a LT playing RT for the first time after he already had question marks about being a consistent player at Alabama.  Good is a solid RG but is not a top player.  Miller has the chance to become a pro bowl level player but he is not there yet.  So we have 3 question marks, 1 average player, and 1 above average player.  I wonder what could go wrong when we know we have a QB that will pack it in if he is not getting good protection.  Even Frankie would agree because why would Carr risk it.  Brown had 1 1,000 yard season 2 years ago and 1 in 2015.  The other four years he has averaged under 500 yards.  He also looked bad last year so if I had to bet I would say he gets around 500 yards this year.  Snead has broken 500 yards once in the past 4 years and has never been a full time starter.  Drake has never eclipsed 500 yards and averages less than 250 a season receiving.  Ruggs and Edwards have promise but shown very little.  The most reliable WR we have is a small slow slot WR known for converting 3rd downs.  Now I want to see what Ruggs and Edwards have but to say I am confident in our WR room would be a lie.  I would have felt much better if we would have taken the money from Brown and Snead and signed a player like Marvin Jones.  If he was healthy I would have rather had TW or paid more for JuJu.  I was against signing JuJu also but I did not realize what we where going to try to put out there.  I love moreau but he is not going to put up crazy numbers.  He is just a solid all around TE that is good in the redzone.  So a questionable o-line, a QB that panicks and does not let plays develop, and a WR corp that will probably not be good at getting open quickly.  Now that I think of it maybe Drake will put up big receiving numbers.

Yeah we will revisit this during the season. I vehemently disagree.

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I think the 21 Raiders have the best depth in a long time. We have 2 starting QB's which is the current topic thread. Thought I was somewhere else because I was reading interesting stuff and no Carr bashing/defending so kind of funny how that happens all over other topics...LOL

We have 2 quality RB's and a good FB not sure who else might make it but Richard has had flashes over the years.

TE Waller is a mismatch and Foster is a good #2

WR Ruggs/Brown for speed. Willie, Renfrow for slot and Edwards and Zay have some size. Waller will get so much attention that we don't need a 1,000 WR just all of the above get 500 yards each and were golden. Injuries won't devastate us but nobody shines either. Nelly did really good with his opportunities (dropped some too) but he wasn't a #1 so I won't miss him for what he'd cost. 

Oline is being remodeled. Miller signed and hopefully keeps improving. Parker did well enough to be LT backup. Ritchie is a wild card but was a beast when healthy. If he's healthy and on point that will help with the biggest weakness which is James at C. Martin backs up the interior and Simpson has a shot at either G. Good starts or is an incredible back up at G/RT and Leatherwood has the skills to be a really good RT and backup LT in an emergency. If not kick him inside next season when Ritchie is gone. That's 8 possibly dressed on gameday. 1 or 2 more but James is the only 'huh' out of this remodel and if he's as good as coaches say then it may have been an upgraded remodel. 

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2 hours ago, G said:

I think the 21 Raiders have the best depth in a long time. We have 2 starting QB's which is the current topic thread. Thought I was somewhere else because I was reading interesting stuff and no Carr bashing/defending so kind of funny how that happens all over other topics...LOL

We have 2 quality RB's and a good FB not sure who else might make it but Richard has had flashes over the years.

TE Waller is a mismatch and Foster is a good #2

WR Ruggs/Brown for speed. Willie, Renfrow for slot and Edwards and Zay have some size. Waller will get so much attention that we don't need a 1,000 WR just all of the above get 500 yards each and were golden. Injuries won't devastate us but nobody shines either. Nelly did really good with his opportunities (dropped some too) but he wasn't a #1 so I won't miss him for what he'd cost. 

Oline is being remodeled. Miller signed and hopefully keeps improving. Parker did well enough to be LT backup. Ritchie is a wild card but was a beast when healthy. If he's healthy and on point that will help with the biggest weakness which is James at C. Martin backs up the interior and Simpson has a shot at either G. Good starts or is an incredible back up at G/RT and Leatherwood has the skills to be a really good RT and backup LT in an emergency. If not kick him inside next season when Ritchie is gone. That's 8 possibly dressed on gameday. 1 or 2 more but James is the only 'huh' out of this remodel and if he's as good as coaches say then it may have been an upgraded remodel. 

I can not argue this and I agree this is a possibility.  What I am saying is that there is not enough certainty to make me optimistic.  To many ifs.  Incognito is a beast when healthy but he will be 39 coming off an Achilles injury that he could not shake all year.  Leatherwood never player RT in college but we are going to throw him in there in the pros.  Simpson and James are good in practice apparently but have not showed it in games.  Good I trust but he is not a top level player but above average.  Miller is the best but he has still shown that his game is elevated with a good LG next to him so him reaching his potential is in the hands of Incognito.  He will still be our best O-linemen though.

If every WR gets 500 and Waller does his thing then we are good but I doubt all these guys get 500 yards.  Some will get more but the average will be under 500.  Once again though we have a lot of what ifs.  I am more than happy with the TEs, QBs, and RBs.  We can live with a below average WR room but the o-line scares me.

 

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3 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

I can not argue this and I agree this is a possibility.  What I am saying is that there is not enough certainty to make me optimistic.  To many ifs.  Incognito is a beast when healthy but he will be 39 coming off an Achilles injury that he could not shake all year.  Leatherwood never player RT in college but we are going to throw him in there in the pros.  Simpson and James are good in practice apparently but have not showed it in games.  Good I trust but he is not a top level player but above average.  Miller is the best but he has still shown that his game is elevated with a good LG next to him so him reaching his potential is in the hands of Incognito.  He will still be our best O-linemen though.

If every WR gets 500 and Waller does his thing then we are good but I doubt all these guys get 500 yards.  Some will get more but the average will be under 500.  Once again though we have a lot of what ifs.  I am more than happy with the TEs, QBs, and RBs.  We can live with a below average WR room but the o-line scares me.

 

The WR room could be below average but also could be good if one of the young guys takes a step. 
 

I agree pass blocking could suffer inside going from Hudson to James, but leatherwood should be an improvement over our revolving door at right tackle. He will probably have some growing pains, but I think he’ll be better in year 1 than Miller because he’s very strong. Plus I do think run blocking will be better. Leatherwood was a mauler in the run game at Alabama and excels at outside zone.

I think it’s conceivable that the line takes a step back pass blocking and a step up in run blocking. I also think it’s possible we use more tight end pass blocking sets or RB chips to help leatherwood and James, like we did in the bears game 2 years ago.

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5 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

The WR room could be below average but also could be good if one of the young guys takes a step. 
 

I agree pass blocking could suffer inside going from Hudson to James, but leatherwood should be an improvement over our revolving door at right tackle. He will probably have some growing pains, but I think he’ll be better in year 1 than Miller because he’s very strong. Plus I do think run blocking will be better. Leatherwood was a mauler in the run game at Alabama and excels at outside zone.

I think it’s conceivable that the line takes a step back pass blocking and a step up in run blocking. I also think it’s possible we use more tight end pass blocking sets or RB chips to help leatherwood and James, like we did in the bears game 2 years ago.

We could a top 5 WR group if everyone plays to their ceiling but it is an if statement.  That was my point.  Nothing proven except JB having 2 1,000 seasons in his 7 year career.

Will Leatherwood be better than I can't play Brown or I can't play m ore than a half Young?  I would hope so.  All he has to do is show up and not leave at halftime.  Could he struggle like Parker in 2018?  That is a possibility also but I see his worst case as a better version because of the time at RG and playing college ball at a top program.  Still does not mean he will even be an average starter his rookie year which would still be an improvement over last year.  Leatherwood has good highlights in the run game but his aggressive nature only comes out sporadically.  He does not blow guys off the line on a consistent basis and that was one of his rad flags.  Inconsistent player from Alabama.  That sure does sound familiar.  Hopefully he can fix that and we can have to consistent Alabama player and 2 that were not.  Miller his rookie year played well until he hurt his knee.  If he can play like Miller preinjury I will be happy but I do not see it.  I think his ceiling for year one is playing about as well as Good at RT.  I would actually like to see Good at RT and Leatherwood at RG year 1.  A position change, new team, and being a rookie all in his first year is a lot to ask for.  At least give him some level of comfort.  Kind of like 2018 when we put Parker at RT.  He should have at least moved to LG and we could have kicked KO to RT where he had played before and did well.  I understand having a rookie left side but rookie bookends ended way worse.  I also think moving Penn to LG and KO to RT at the beginning of the season would have worked out better also.

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2 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

We could a top 5 WR group if everyone plays to their ceiling but it is an if statement.  That was my point.  Nothing proven except JB having 2 1,000 seasons in his 7 year career.

Will Leatherwood be better than I can't play Brown or I can't play m ore than a half Young?  I would hope so.  All he has to do is show up and not leave at halftime.  Could he struggle like Parker in 2018?  That is a possibility also but I see his worst case as a better version because of the time at RG and playing college ball at a top program.  Still does not mean he will even be an average starter his rookie year which would still be an improvement over last year.  Leatherwood has good highlights in the run game but his aggressive nature only comes out sporadically.  He does not blow guys off the line on a consistent basis and that was one of his rad flags.  Inconsistent player from Alabama.  That sure does sound familiar.  Hopefully he can fix that and we can have to consistent Alabama player and 2 that were not.  Miller his rookie year played well until he hurt his knee.  If he can play like Miller preinjury I will be happy but I do not see it.  I think his ceiling for year one is playing about as well as Good at RT.  I would actually like to see Good at RT and Leatherwood at RG year 1.  A position change, new team, and being a rookie all in his first year is a lot to ask for.  At least give him some level of comfort.  Kind of like 2018 when we put Parker at RT.  He should have at least moved to LG and we could have kicked KO to RT where he had played before and did well.  I understand having a rookie left side but rookie bookends ended way worse.  I also think moving Penn to LG and KO to RT at the beginning of the season would have worked out better also.

Agree on good at RT, leatherwood at RG but they won’t do it.

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6 hours ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

Agree on good at RT, leatherwood at RG but they won’t do it.

I know they won't but it appears to be the best and safest choice.  To much trust given to Cable and like I have said before his measurables approach has created more problems than it has solved.

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22 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

What I am saying is that there is not enough certainty to make me optimistic.  To many ifs.  

 

100%. 

If Carr improves more.

If the RBs rebound. 

If the retooled O-line is good. 

If the D-line improves. 

If our coverage improves. 

If Abram doesn't suck. 

If Arnette isn't riding pine. 

On and on. 

I mean, sure, every season is a 50/50 before games are played and most everything hinges on "if". Heck, Green Bay is a Superbowl contender "if Rodgers plays". 

Most successful teams have "if's" that are backed by previous output and performance: "If" Brady is still playing at a high level; "If" Derrick Henry continues to run over everyone; "If" the Vikings WR corps continues to improve; etc. 

Our only "if" that would warrant a bet on being probable is Carr improving, as he's typically done so to some degree. And even that hinges on a bunch of "if's" all across the offense. WRs and O-line wind up sucking, he won't improve. 

The rest of our "if's" are poor bets (not saying I hope they fail, because I obviously don't). The O-line has been almost completely redone and individual guys on it have their own set of sucker bet "if's". 

"If" a 38 year old OG can rebound from injury. "If" our practically unknown C James can replace our All-Pro Hudson to any respectable degree. "If" Leatherwood is a good RT. "If" Good is starting caliber for 16 games. "If" Miller's newfound status as the vet on the line didn't come too early. 

These are total unknowns at the individual level, much less how each relates to the entire unit. Outside of Miller, these are "if's" that determine whether we field an NFL caliber O-line in the first place, "improvement" being entirely premature. 

RBs- Jacobs looked off. Was year 1 a fluke? Drake is exciting but has limited production. With that little to refer to, them being a marked improvement on last year is far from a guarantee. 

WRs- "if" Ruggs and/or Edwards take their first real steps towards being worthy of snaps, because neither really did last year. "If" Brown recaptures his rare 1000 yd form (even if he doesn't actually get that many). "If" Snead and Jones are even worthy of a roster spot given their practically nonexistent production. Right now, these aren't "improvement" if's, they're "first steps" if's. 

D-line- "If" one of the new DTs proves worthy of being a starter, which really none have done before. "If" Ferrell improves enough to warrant keeping on the field ahead of Crosby. "If" Yannick was worthwhile and produces more than Crosby (one of my bigger concerns, actually, as they've had similar production with Crosby playing with inferior talent around him). Baby steps first. 

Secondary- "If" Abram doesn't still suck. "If" Hayward is still a true starting caliber CB. "If" our NCB doesn't remain a point of obvious weakness. Again, baby steps first.

Carr is a steady constant, but as shown, improvement is contingent on 7 of the other 10 guys on offense showing viability to begin with, much less improvement from what we previously had (Waller, Ingold*/Renfrow* depending on package, and Miller being the 3 other good bets on improvement and consistency). The rest of the Offense is basically in hard reboot mode. 

Our LBs (ironically) are the only unit on D that played well enough to make improvement truly "expected". The rest are essentially starting from the ground up with next to nothing to go by. 

 

I'm with you. I'm definitely hopeful we're a better team. I thought we were better than our record last year, so I'd love to beat that. But am I optimistic or expecting it? Not really. 

Based on our overall body of work last year, we were probably a 10-6 team that underachieved at 8-8. With the amount of absolute unknowns, we're more of a 7-9 team who could overachieve "if" a lot of "if's" come to fruition. 

Of 22 starters, we essentially need 15 of them to prove they're even worthy of starting in the first place. That's an exceptionally steep hill to climb in a division that could very well be one of the deepest in the league as KC is a Superbowl contender, LA has shown rapid improvement from their building blocks, and consensus seems to have Denver just a QB away from being a potential powerhouse. 

Edited by ronjon1990
*Left Waller out becaue he's more of a "should" than an "if".
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3 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

100%. 

If Carr improves more.

If the RBs rebound. 

If the retooled O-line is good. 

If the D-line improves. 

If our coverage improves. 

If Abram doesn't suck. 

If Arnette isn't riding pine. 

On and on. 

I mean, sure, every season is a 50/50 before games are played and most everything hinges on "if". Heck, Green Bay is a Superbowl contender "if Rodgers plays". 

Most successful teams have "if's" that are backed by previous output and performance: "If" Brady is still playing at a high level; "If" Derrick Henry continues to run over everyone; "If" the Vikings WR corps continues to improve; etc. 

Our only "if" that would warrant a bet on being probable is Carr improving, as he's typically done so to some degree. And even that hinges on a bunch of "if's" all across the offense. WRs and O-line wind up sucking, he won't improve. 

The rest of our "if's" are poor bets (not saying I hope they fail, because I obviously don't). The O-line has been almost completely redone and individual guys on it have their own set of sucker bet "if's". 

"If" a 38 year old OG can rebound from injury. "If" our practically unknown C James can replace our All-Pro Hudson to any respectable degree. "If" Leatherwood is a good RT. "If" Good is starting caliber for 16 games. "If" Miller's newfound status as the vet on the line didn't come too early. 

These are total unknowns at the individual level, much less how each relates to the entire unit. Outside of Miller, these are "if's" that determine whether we field an NFL caliber O-line in the first place, "improvement" being entirely premature. 

RBs- Jacobs looked off. Was year 1 a fluke? Drake is exciting but has limited production. With that little to refer to, them being a marked improvement on last year is far from a guarantee. 

WRs- "if" Ruggs and/or Edwards take their first real steps towards being worthy of snaps, because neither really did last year. "If" Brown recaptures his rare 1000 yd form (even if he doesn't actually get that many). "If" Snead and Jones are even worthy of a roster spot given their practically nonexistent production. Right now, these aren't "improvement" if's, they're "first steps" if's. 

D-line- "If" one of the new DTs proves worthy of being a starter, which really none have done before. "If" Ferrell improves enough to warrant keeping on the field ahead of Crosby. "If" Yannick was worthwhile and produces more than Crosby (one of my bigger concerns, actually, as they've had similar production with Crosby playing with inferior talent around him). Baby steps first. 

Secondary- "If" Abram doesn't still suck. "If" Hayward is still a true starting caliber CB. "If" our NCB doesn't remain a point of obvious weakness. Again, baby steps first.

Carr is a steady constant, but as shown, improvement is contingent on 7 of the other 10 guys on offense showing viability to begin with, much less improvement from what we previously had (Waller, Ingold*/Renfrow* depending on package, and Miller being the 3 other good bets on improvement and consistency). The rest of the Offense is basically in hard reboot mode. 

Our LBs (ironically) are the only unit on D that played well enough to make improvement truly "expected". The rest are essentially starting from the ground up with next to nothing to go by. 

 

I'm with you. I'm definitely hopeful we're a better team. I thought we were better than our record last year, so I'd love to beat that. But am I optimistic or expecting it? Not really. 

Based on our overall body of work last year, we were probably a 10-6 team that underachieved at 8-8. With the amount of absolute unknowns, we're more of a 7-9 team who could overachieve "if" a lot of "if's" come to fruition. 

Of 22 starters, we essentially need 15 of them to prove they're even worthy of starting in the first place. That's an exceptionally steep hill to climb in a division that could very well be one of the deepest in the league as KC is a Superbowl contender, LA has shown rapid improvement from their building blocks, and consensus seems to have Denver just a QB away from being a potential powerhouse. 

Could not have said it better.  I am confident in 7 starters and comfortable with 5 others.  That is 9 question marks for me just with the starters.  Some should succeed and some should do worse then expected.  After 3 years there is no reason to have 9 players in this situation.  Most teams will have 2-4 players every year that need to prove themselves but we have to many.  If we had drafted a RT to play RT in the 1st I would say I was comfortable that the player could transition to the pros with some growing pains.  They way we did it Leatherwood is a big if player.  Just seems this coaching staff and FO takes to many chances.  I believe it al stems from the ego of Gruden.

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Idk some of these guys are proven starters. I’d much rather have ngakoue moehrig and Hayward than Ferrell (better inside), Harris, and Lawson as starters. Granted they’re new , but we’re not trotting out garbage anymore. The OL and DL are question marks, but we have definite talent at a lot of positions on the roster. Despite some asset mismanagement, which you won’t hear me disagree with. Also Jacobs was still very good last year. The OL was just miserable for most of the year in the year. 
 

I really feel like the OL is being romanticized from last year. I was calling them out all of last year for taking a huge step down. Like i said, I wouldn’t be surprised if we take a step back in pass blocking and a step up in run blocking. It’s hard to run block worse than we did last year. And the guys who left had a lot to do with that. And that explained a lot of our red zone woes. 

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Also anyone know how wins above replacement are calculated? Apparently Carr has been 9th since 2009. It's an interesting list available on Reddit. Don't want to link it because i don't know site policy.

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19 hours ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

Idk some of these guys are proven starters. I’d much rather have ngakoue moehrig and Hayward than Ferrell (better inside), Harris, and Lawson as starters. Granted they’re new , but we’re not trotting out garbage anymore. The OL and DL are question marks, but we have definite talent at a lot of positions on the roster. Despite some asset mismanagement, which you won’t hear me disagree with. Also Jacobs was still very good last year. The OL was just miserable for most of the year in the year. 
 

I really feel like the OL is being romanticized from last year. I was calling them out all of last year for taking a huge step down. Like i said, I wouldn’t be surprised if we take a step back in pass blocking and a step up in run blocking. It’s hard to run block worse than we did last year. And the guys who left had a lot to do with that. And that explained a lot of our red zone woes. 

Meh josh is josh imo very good is a stretch we had to force feed him just to barely crack 1k. I admit the line wasn’t the best but we need players who don’t need perfection to be successful. Josh’s lack of speed imo will continue to keep him from being a top 10 rb. 

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11 hours ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

Also anyone know how wins above replacement are calculated? Apparently Carr has been 9th since 2009. It's an interesting list available on Reddit. Don't want to link it because i don't know site policy.

It just means that our backup QBs have been the epitome of hot garbage.

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36 minutes ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

Meh josh is josh imo very good is a stretch we had to force feed him just to barely crack 1k. I admit the line wasn’t the best but we need players who don’t need perfection to be successful. Josh’s lack of speed imo will continue to keep him from being a top 10 rb. 

He's also never been a homerun hitter as a rusher. He's very reliant on the blocking scheme and doesn't really have the speed or wiggle to compensate for a lesser O-line. 

I like Josh. He does his job well. But he's not an exciting big play RB. And I don't like how we've used him thus far. He's not a focal point of a great offense without, as you said, getting force-fed. I hope they use Drake more than they used Booker last year. 

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