The QB Thread: Everything Carr, Stidham and beyond...

[BayRaider]

1 minute ago, NYRaider said:

Bengals at home and Cowboys on Thanksgiving are the two that scare me the most. The Colts are not on fire, they've beaten the Texans and 49ers. Washington's defense is 32nd in points allowed and 29th in yards allowed. Cleveland, healthy or not, is a game we should win.

I’m not saying which are games we should win or not. Just that our 2nd half schedule is brutal. Every single one of those 8 games is tougher than any of our first half games outside of BAL/LAC. Our first half schedule is embarrassingly easy. 

[NYRaider]

10 minutes ago, BayRaider said:

I’m not saying which are games we should win or not. Just that our 2nd half schedule is brutal. Every single one of those 8 games is tougher than any of our first half games outside of BAL/LAC. Our first half schedule is embarrassingly easy. 

Agreed the second half of our schedule is brutal. 

[Darbsk]

https://mobile.twitter.com/arjunmenon100/status/1466453750600585216/photo/1

Not really sure about the stats used to generate this nor whether I agree or disagree with them. Seems somewhat reasonable from what I've seen of most teams this year though Wilson and Lawrence seem a bit high........

Edited December 4, 2021 by Darbsk

[ronjon1990]

On 12/4/2021 at 1:16 AM, Darbsk said:

https://mobile.twitter.com/arjunmenon100/status/1466453750600585216/photo/1

Not really sure about the stats used to generate this nor whether I agree or disagree with them. Seems somewhat reasonable from what I've seen of most teams this year though Wilson and Lawrence seem a bit high........

I feel the same. 

Carr hasn't had much help.....but to say Wilson or Lawrence have had more is.........yeah.

[Darbsk]

2 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

I feel the same. 

Carr hasn't had much help.....but to say Wilson or Lawrence have had more is.........yeah.

Yeh, I just wish for one year we could have a good, stable OL, no coaching bombshells, decent reliable WRs and a decent run game all at the same time. Not elite in anything, not asking too much, but decent to good so we can finally see what Carr can actually bring to the table over the course of a whole season. We've had very tempting glimpses like '16 and the beginning of this year and last but there always seems to be something that gets in the way and it's always something that seems so random like the back injury and Washington game in '17, the debacle and tear down that was '18 or the fiasco that happened this year. Just one solid, stable year like '16 is all I ask!😔

[ronjon1990]

3 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

Yeh, I just wish for one year we could have a good, stable OL, no coaching bombshells, decent reliable WRs and a decent run game all at the same time. Not elite in anything, not asking too much, but decent to good so we can finally see what Carr can actually bring to the table over the course of a whole season. We've had very tempting glimpses like '16 and the beginning of this year and last but there always seems to be something that gets in the way and it's always something that seems so random like the back injury and Washington game in '17, the debacle and tear down that was '18 or the fiasco that happened this year. Just one solid, stable year like '16 is all I ask!😔

I was talking to a Saints fan friend the other night who brought up a good point that I too have somewhat argued in the past:

Derek Carr is, even among most of his detractors, pretty much ranked somewhere between 8 and 15, usually hovering around 10. That, in spite of the trash put around him and endless drama that is the Raiders. By all accounts, he should be somewhere around the 20th, a testament to him literally dragging this kicking and screaming mess along the way. 

Ergo, Carr is probably a legitimate top 5 QB in the league, being held back by this crapshoot of a roster and organization. 

Now, that's somewhat hyperbolic as even I think Rodgers, Mahomes, Allen, Brady, maybe Prescott, Wilson, and Murray are all ahead of him. Some are TBD coming off good years like Herbert. But those come with a caveat: every single one of those QBs play for better drafting, better coached, better built teams. With the exception of Murray, maybe, each and every QB ahead of Carr stepped into borderline to surefire great situations. Carr is the only QB ever in discussion who has consistently played alongside garbage, and the fact he's even up there around the Daks and Kylers and Herberts can't just get hand-waved away. 

I think Rodgers and Mahomes speak for themselves. Brady has the history and is probably the GOAT. But honestly, after those 3? 

Would Carr on the Cowboys be better than Dak? I mean, he's in the same conversation as Dak but has nowhere near the team or organization Dak has. 

No offense to Josh Allen, his improvement is phenomenal, but he's not perfect. Carr on the Bills vs. Allen on the Raiders? 

Kyler Murray with this O-line? Wilson and his hero ball with this O-line and our weapons? 

Basically, there's a legitimate argument to be made that Carr could be in that 5, 6, 7 spot easily if we were a better overall team. And if we were anywhere near as well stocked and coached as the Chiefs, Bucs, Rams, Packers....who knows? But I think that Carr even approaches the top 10 status with a bottom 10 roster is all the proof I need to know he would be a star elsewhere and could be here if we had any clue what we were doing.

 

[drfrey13]

43 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

I was talking to a Saints fan friend the other night who brought up a good point that I too have somewhat argued in the past:

Derek Carr is, even among most of his detractors, pretty much ranked somewhere between 8 and 15, usually hovering around 10. That, in spite of the trash put around him and endless drama that is the Raiders. By all accounts, he should be somewhere around the 20th, a testament to him literally dragging this kicking and screaming mess along the way. 

Ergo, Carr is probably a legitimate top 5 QB in the league, being held back by this crapshoot of a roster and organization. 

Now, that's somewhat hyperbolic as even I think Rodgers, Mahomes, Allen, Brady, maybe Prescott, Wilson, and Murray are all ahead of him. Some are TBD coming off good years like Herbert. But those come with a caveat: every single one of those QBs play for better drafting, better coached, better built teams. With the exception of Murray, maybe, each and every QB ahead of Carr stepped into borderline to surefire great situations. Carr is the only QB ever in discussion who has consistently played alongside garbage, and the fact he's even up there around the Daks and Kylers and Herberts can't just get hand-waved away. 

I think Rodgers and Mahomes speak for themselves. Brady has the history and is probably the GOAT. But honestly, after those 3? 

Would Carr on the Cowboys be better than Dak? I mean, he's in the same conversation as Dak but has nowhere near the team or organization Dak has. 

No offense to Josh Allen, his improvement is phenomenal, but he's not perfect. Carr on the Bills vs. Allen on the Raiders? 

Kyler Murray with this O-line? Wilson and his hero ball with this O-line and our weapons? 

Basically, there's a legitimate argument to be made that Carr could be in that 5, 6, 7 spot easily if we were a better overall team. And if we were anywhere near as well stocked and coached as the Chiefs, Bucs, Rams, Packers....who knows? But I think that Carr even approaches the top 10 status with a bottom 10 roster is all the proof I need to know he would be a star elsewhere and could be here if we had any clue what we were doing.

 

I think what is missing here is some of the QBs you mentioned are playmakers.  When things breakdown they are capable of generating offense by themselves and that inspires confidence in the other players.  Players like Dak and Carr more so need to operate within an offense so when things breakdown in a game or over a season players can start to lose confidence and it starts a descending spiral.  We can not keep giving Carr a pass by saying something always goes wrong.  This is the NFL and 99% of the time something goes wrong as the season progresses.  Players get hurt, players get suspended, defenses figure you out, and the intensity increases.  Carr has shown that he does not adapt well to these things and still has an issue with the cold.  Brady is just the GOAT and keeps adapting until he figures out how to beat you.  In conclusion if you have a QB that needs ideal situations to succeed you will not be a very successful team in the NFL.  Carr is capable of being a really good QB but he has not proven it yet throughout an entire season..  2016 was not a dominant season for him either.  He was just really good at limiting mistakes.

[ronjon1990]

1 minute ago, drfrey13 said:

I think what is missing here is some of the QBs you mentioned are playmakers.  When things breakdown they are capable of generating offense by themselves and that inspires confidence in the other players.  Players like Dak and Carr more so need to operate within an offense so when things breakdown in a game or over a season players can start to lose confidence and it starts a descending spiral.  We can not keep giving Carr a pass by saying something always goes wrong.  This is the NFL and 99% of the time something goes wrong as the season progresses.  Players get hurt, players get suspended, defenses figure you out, and the intensity increases.  Carr has shown that he does not adapt well to these things and still has an issue with the cold.  Brady is just the GOAT and keeps adapting until he figures out how to beat you.  In conclusion if you have a QB that needs ideal situations to succeed you will not be a very successful team in the NFL.  Carr is capable of being a really good QB but he has not proven it yet throughout an entire season..  2016 was not a dominant season for him either.  He was just really good at limiting mistakes.

Name 1 QB who legitimately makes chicken salad out of chicken**** though. Tom Brady a few times maybe? 

It's easy to be a "playmaker" when you have an otherwise good team. Do things always go wrong for someone? Yes. But something going wrong on, say, the Packers or Cardinals hardly lowers their overall talent level to that of the Raiders. They're a player away from being a good, not great team. We're a player away from being the Lions. There's a huge difference that, again, can't just get waved away. 

How one can make a firm determination on what Carr could do when not lugging our rotting corpse of a franchise around when all he's done is lug our rotting corpse of a franchise around is beyond me. 

[drfrey13]

26 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

Name 1 QB who legitimately makes chicken salad out of chicken**** though. Tom Brady a few times maybe? 

It's easy to be a "playmaker" when you have an otherwise good team. Do things always go wrong for someone? Yes. But something going wrong on, say, the Packers or Cardinals hardly lowers their overall talent level to that of the Raiders. They're a player away from being a good, not great team. We're a player away from being the Lions. There's a huge difference that, again, can't just get waved away. 

How one can make a firm determination on what Carr could do when not lugging our rotting corpse of a franchise around when all he's done is lug our rotting corpse of a franchise around is beyond me. 

I have watched Russell Wilson do it for years.  I am not saying Carr needs to improve the team 100%.  I am saying there are players that can overcome or at least partially compensate for the offense breaking down.  The key I believe is a willingness and being decisive when using your legs to extend and create.  Something Carr does not do.  Something that MM does and the offense looks better when he does.  Now over the long run MM would have a worse outcome, in my opinion, than Carr but if Carr could start adding a little MM to his game we would be in a much better situation.  A willing runner at QB helps and Carr is not.  Not that he should try to be Earl Cambell but he is scared when he runs and tries to do avoid it as much as possible to the point he makes mistakes.

[Darbsk]

40 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

I think what is missing here is some of the QBs you mentioned are playmakers.  When things breakdown they are capable of generating offense by themselves and that inspires confidence in the other players.  Players like Dak and Carr more so need to operate within an offense so when things breakdown in a game or over a season players can start to lose confidence and it starts a descending spiral.  We can not keep giving Carr a pass by saying something always goes wrong.  This is the NFL and 99% of the time something goes wrong as the season progresses.  Players get hurt, players get suspended, defenses figure you out, and the intensity increases.  Carr has shown that he does not adapt well to these things and still has an issue with the cold.  Brady is just the GOAT and keeps adapting until he figures out how to beat you.  In conclusion if you have a QB that needs ideal situations to succeed you will not be a very successful team in the NFL.  Carr is capable of being a really good QB but he has not proven it yet throughout an entire season..  2016 was not a dominant season for him either.  He was just really good at limiting mistakes.

I do agree to some degree but it is also clear that Carr has definitely been handicapped by this franchise. With regards the very best players only Russell Wilson I think has really excelled in very difficult circumstances. He's had a very poor OL, Carson is a very good RB though he's now out and he's had pretty good receivers but I think he's made more with less than the other top guys which is why I think he's clearly better than the likes of Mahomes. Still it's clear this year with no running game and poor line play he's struggling. I think Carr isn't the great entertainer type QB that plays off the cuff but in the right system, with good weapons he could be really, really good. The guys who can really excel with poor casts I think are only a handful, Rodgers, Brady, Wilson, Watson (though I hope he never plays again), then Allen and Ryan maybe and we're yet to see how Kermit and Murray do without an all star cast. 

[ronjon1990]

18 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

I have watched Russell Wilson do it for years. 

11 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

With regards the very best players only Russell Wilson I think has really excelled in very difficult circumstances. 

 

I've also watched Russell Wilson's hero ball fail spectacularly in terms of unnecessary sacks and lost yardage, so it's not as if all he does is touched with gold. Dude had one of the best defenses in the league for much of his career and could afford to play his style of hero ball. 

Carr has had one of the worst defenses in the history of the NFL at times and has had to be sure to take care of the ball lest a 7 deficit becomes a 14 point one in a flash. 

Why is it so difficult to realize that good teams allow players to look good and play hero ball and get the ESPN highlights and bad teams do not afford that chance? Russ throws a pick for 90% of his career, Seattle either stops the opponent or already had a lead and it just goes down as a "wishes he could have that one back for the stat book" things. Carr throws a pick, it's almost assuredly leading us into a deeper hole and is listed as why we lost. It's really not rocket science.

[Darbsk]

1 minute ago, ronjon1990 said:

I've also watched Russell Wilson's hero ball fail spectacularly in terms of unnecessary sacks and lost yardage, so it's not as if all he does is touched with gold. Dude had one of the best defenses in the league for much of his career and could afford to play his style of hero ball. 

Carr has had one of the worst defenses in the history of the NFL at times and has had to be sure to take care of the ball lest a 7 deficit becomes a 14 point one in a flash. 

Why is it so difficult to realize that good teams allow players to look good and play hero ball and get the ESPN highlights and bad teams do not afford that chance? Russ throws a pick for 90% of his career, Seattle either stops the opponent or already had a lead and it just goes down as a "wishes he could have that one back for the stat book" things. Carr throws a pick, it's almost assuredly leading us into a deeper hole and is listed as why we lost. It's really not rocket science.

Yeh, I don't disagree with that and Carr has known in the past that an interception is simply giving the other team points with how our Defences have been. This year shows that even Wilson struggles when in a bad situation as every QB does. I happen to really like Wilson and think he's done the most with the least of all the top guys but as you say, that type of QB play can backfire spectacularly. It would be really interesting wouldn't it to be able to swap various QBs around and see what they can do in each situation?

[MrOaktown_56]

29 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

I have watched Russell Wilson do it for years.  I am not saying Carr needs to improve the team 100%.  I am saying there are players that can overcome or at least partially compensate for the offense breaking down.  The key I believe is a willingness and being decisive when using your legs to extend and create.  Something Carr does not do.  Something that MM does and the offense looks better when he does.  Now over the long run MM would have a worse outcome, in my opinion, than Carr but if Carr could start adding a little MM to his game we would be in a much better situation.  A willing runner at QB helps and Carr is not.  Not that he should try to be Earl Cambell but he is scared when he runs and tries to do avoid it as much as possible to the point he makes mistakes.

Yeah if Carr starts looking to run after 3-4 seconds, the offense would look better 100%.

[ronjon1990]

3 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

It would be really interesting wouldn't it to be able to swap various QBs around and see what they can do in each situation?

Really would be. 

It's always easy to point to this or that QB and say "Oh but look what they did!". 

Yeah, but do they do that if places were swapped? 

Take Mahomes even. Anyone wanna bet he tosses 5097 yards, 50 TDs and 12 INTs if he's on the 2018 Raiders? No chance in hell, and all of a sudden the entire narrative of Patrick Mahomes is changed. 

[ronjon1990]

8 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

Yeah if Carr starts looking to run after 3-4 seconds, the offense would look better 100%.

Lol right? 

Carr has barely had 3-4 seconds to ever decide anything in the first place, much less to then decide to run. 

Give him what then amounts to 5-6 to make a decision....heck even Matt McGloin would look good. 

Not taking anything away from Russell Wilson, but let's be honest.