Frankie2Gunz Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 1 hour ago, Jeremy408 said: It’s even more practical than that: People wanted Deshaun Watson. If Quarterbacks are what carry the team to the playoffs regardless of the rest of the roster then why were the Texans so bad last year? A great example to disprove that theory. It’s ludicrous to believe wins and losses are solely on a QB and used to determine how good a QB is. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy408 Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 18 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said: A great example to disprove that theory. It’s ludicrous to believe wins and losses are solely on a QB and used to determine how good a QB is. Watching too much FS21 and ESPN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronjon1990 Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 (edited) 14 hours ago, Frankie2Gunz said: A great example to disprove that theory. It’s ludicrous to believe wins and losses are solely on a QB and used to determine how good a QB is. Stats can be portrayed and manipulated in many ways. Through his first 2 seasons in the league, Steve Young was 3 and 16 as a starter with like a 52.3% completion rating and a td:int ratio of 11/21. Did Steve Young suck? Nope, Tampa Bay sucked. 1998-2002 Peyton Manning wasn't particularly great. Good, not great. .500 win % and not a real noteworthy 138:100 ratio. Drew Brees from 2002 through 2008 was like 55-51 as a starting QB. Nick Foles was 19-16 with a 53:27 ratio. So by some people's logic, they would have 100% taken Nick Foles over Young or Manning or Brees as he was arguably as successful as Brees and better than Young or Manning in the win/loss column and his TD:INT ratio was absolutely sterling in comparison to the other 3. And Jared Goff? Homeboy is 42-27 with 107:55 and 4 straight winning seasons. Jared Goff is clearly far superior to those guys. More wins, more TDs, less INTs, faster Superbowl appearance that any of the scrubs above. Edited June 13, 2021 by ronjon1990 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drfrey13 Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 2 hours ago, Frankie2Gunz said: A great example to disprove that theory. It’s ludicrous to believe wins and losses are solely on a QB and used to determine how good a QB is. I do not think anyone thinks they are the sole reason but are usually the biggest factor. This is not always true but like most things in life there is a spectrum. If a team is meant to function around an elite QB and they are eating up a ton of cap space, Mahomes, then I will give the QB a huge portion of the praise or fault. Now a player life Dilfer who won a Super Bowl gets credit for not being the reason why his team lost rather than the reason why they won. This why Trent Brown would never live up to his contract at RT or Cooper at WR. Their impact would never justify the the portion of the cap they where given regardless of how well they played. There is a reason why 15 of the top 20 spots for average cap percentage are QBs. If it was not for a big crop of rookie contracts for QBs that number would probably be 20 out of the top 25. Expected value added plays a huge part in most NFL contracts. It is not the only variable but is probably 75%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 3 hours ago, ronjon1990 said: Stats can be portrayed and manipulated in many ways. Through his first 2 seasons in the league, Steve Young was 3 and 16 as a starter withh like a 52.3% conpletion rating and a td:int ratio of 11/21. Did Steve Young suck? Nope, Tampa Bay sucked. 1998-2002 Peyton Manning wasn't particularly great. Good, not great. .500 win % and not a real noteworthy 138:100 ratio. Drew Brees from 2002 through 2008 was like 55-51 as a starting QB. Nick Foles was 19-16 with a 53:27 ratio. So by some people's logic, they would have 100% taken Nick Foles over Young or Manning or Brees as he was arguably as successful as Brees and better than Young or Manning in the win/loss column and his TD:INT ratio was absolutely sterling in comparison to the other 3. And Jared Goff? Homeboy is 42-27 with 107:55 and 4 straight winning seasons. Jared Goff is clearly far superior to those guys. More wins, more TDs, less INTs, faster Superbowl appearance that any of the scrubs above. The difference is that those guys had slow starts and the improved. Carr hasn't ever shown that he's capable of leading an NFL franchise to the next level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 I'm in different about Carr but this is without a doubt or make or break year for him whether it's fair or not. He only has 2 years left on his deal (including this season), which is a very friendly team deal, so if we come up short again I could see two scenarios. We trade up for a quarterback and let him redshirt under Carr for a year or we draft a quarterback and trade Carr next offseason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 3 hours ago, ronjon1990 said: Stats can be portrayed and manipulated in many ways. Through his first 2 seasons in the league, Steve Young was 3 and 16 as a starter withh like a 52.3% conpletion rating and a td:int ratio of 11/21. Did Steve Young suck? Nope, Tampa Bay sucked. 1998-2002 Peyton Manning wasn't particularly great. Good, not great. .500 win % and not a real noteworthy 138:100 ratio. Drew Brees from 2002 through 2008 was like 55-51 as a starting QB. Nick Foles was 19-16 with a 53:27 ratio. So by some people's logic, they would have 100% taken Nick Foles over Young or Manning or Brees as he was arguably as successful as Brees and better than Young or Manning in the win/loss column and his TD:INT ratio was absolutely sterling in comparison to the other 3. And Jared Goff? Homeboy is 42-27 with 107:55 and 4 straight winning seasons. Jared Goff is clearly far superior to those guys. More wins, more TDs, less INTs, faster Superbowl appearance that any of the scrubs above. Didn't Steve Young's career get off to an extremely bizarre start because he played in another league? Peyton had a so-so rookie season but in years 2 and 3 he led the Colts to 13-3 and 10-6 records, with only two losing seasons during his 17 year career. Brees struggled his first couple of seasons and then led the Chargers to back to back winning seasons before he went to New Orleans. Foles was a flash in the pan who had 1 good season and then caught magic with the Eagles during their Super Bowl season. Goff gets a ton of hate but he's essentially the same player as Derek Carr. Good enough if the team around him ins stacked but he's never going to be a playmaker. The Saints hadn't won a playoff game in almost 2 years before Brees showed up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darbsk Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 11 hours ago, Frankie2Gunz said: There are a few of those clowns out there. It's like the old saying says, "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink". We've explained the situation a million times on here but some people can't grasp reality. I literally put zero value into anything someone who believes wins and losses are solely attributed to how good a QB is. Maybe these guys should explain their logic to the HOF, which has a QB inducted who has a losing record as a starter (Warren Moon). If what NYRaider says is true Moon should not be in the HOF. Man, I used to love watching Warren Moon play for the old Oilers! He was my dad's favourite too...... If there was a better pure thrower of the ball with a more sublime motion then I haven't seen him yet. Pretty good on his feet when he was younger too, just a great, great player. 😀 I'm very surprised he had a losing record though.......just goes to show how much goes into a team winning consistently as you point out. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy408 Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 6 hours ago, ronjon1990 said: Stats can be portrayed and manipulated in many ways. Through his first 2 seasons in the league, Steve Young was 3 and 16 as a starter withh like a 52.3% conpletion rating and a td:int ratio of 11/21. Did Steve Young suck? Nope, Tampa Bay sucked. 1998-2002 Peyton Manning wasn't particularly great. Good, not great. .500 win % and not a real noteworthy 138:100 ratio. Drew Brees from 2002 through 2008 was like 55-51 as a starting QB. Nick Foles was 19-16 with a 53:27 ratio. So by some people's logic, they would have 100% taken Nick Foles over Young or Manning or Brees as he was arguably as successful as Brees and better than Young or Manning in the win/loss column and his TD:INT ratio was absolutely sterling in comparison to the other 3. And Jared Goff? Homeboy is 42-27 with 107:55 and 4 straight winning seasons. Jared Goff is clearly far superior to those guys. More wins, more TDs, less INTs, faster Superbowl appearance that any of the scrubs above. Right. If record were an indicator of how good a Quarterback is then why do the Rams(A winning franchise Who is just in the SB 3 years ago) trade a quarterback that’s only been a part of one winning season(Stafford)? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankie2Gunz Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 5 hours ago, NYRaider said: Didn't Steve Young's career get off to an extremely bizarre start because he played in another league? Peyton had a so-so rookie season but in years 2 and 3 he led the Colts to 13-3 and 10-6 records, with only two losing seasons during his 17 year career. Brees struggled his first couple of seasons and then led the Chargers to back to back winning seasons before he went to New Orleans. Foles was a flash in the pan who had 1 good season and then caught magic with the Eagles during their Super Bowl season. Goff gets a ton of hate but he's essentially the same player as Derek Carr. Good enough if the team around him ins stacked but he's never going to be a playmaker. The Saints hadn't won a playoff game in almost 2 years before Brees showed up. "Goff gets a ton of hate but he's essentially the same player as Derek Carr. Good enough if the team around him ins stacked but he's never going to be a playmaker". If Goff and Carr are essentially the same player where would you rank Stafford in comparison to those two and what are your metrics for your ranking? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BackinBlack Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 6 hours ago, NYRaider said: I'm in different about Carr but this is without a doubt or make or break year for him whether it's fair or not. He only has 2 years left on his deal (including this season), which is a very friendly team deal, so if we come up short again I could see two scenarios. We trade up for a quarterback and let him redshirt under Carr for a year or we draft a quarterback and trade Carr next offseason. not only that, but our roster is finally better, and at a point where we should be able to make a serious playoff push. Our D is still weak, but hopefully should be better. We have depth across the board (at least from what we are used to), just need the oline to hold. Gruden knew he had a 10 year contract and really blew this team up and built it how he wanted. Its now time to start seeing the results, most coaches throughout history dont get the opportunity to do things the way Grduen did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronjon1990 Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 8 hours ago, NYRaider said: The difference is that those guys had slow starts and the improved. Carr hasn't ever shown that he's capable of leading an NFL franchise to the next level. They didn't just magically improve via "click here to auto progress players" button. Their teams built up good-great offenses and defenses that aided them. You know, the opposite of what we've done lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronjon1990 Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 7 hours ago, NYRaider said: Didn't Steve Young's career get off to an extremely bizarre start because he played in another league? Peyton had a so-so rookie season but in years 2 and 3 he led the Colts to 13-3 and 10-6 records, with only two losing seasons during his 17 year career. Brees struggled his first couple of seasons and then led the Chargers to back to back winning seasons before he went to New Orleans. Foles was a flash in the pan who had 1 good season and then caught magic with the Eagles during their Super Bowl season. Goff gets a ton of hate but he's essentially the same player as Derek Carr. Good enough if the team around him ins stacked but he's never going to be a playmaker. The Saints hadn't won a playoff game in almost 2 years before Brees showed up. No, you aren't allowed to use hindsight. Steve Young was garbage and had a pitiful record. END. OF. STORY. Manning was a turnover machine to near Cutler levels and was 32-32 after 4 years in the league. He wasn't a franchise guy then. The Colts should've drafted his replacement in 03. END. OF. STORY. Drew Brees shouldn't have been allowed to keep starting after he amassed a 10-17 record. No wonder he had 8 losing (6) or 8-8 (2) seasons. Clearly mediocre anyway. But still shouldn't have gotten the shot. END. OF. STORY. Nope, doesn't matter with BDN. He was a winner with a better TD:INT ratio to ALL of those supposed "Hall of Fame" quarterbacks. The league should have bowed down to him. He's secretly superior to Mahomes too. WINS AND GOOD STATS ARE ALL THAT MATTER!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 2 hours ago, Frankie2Gunz said: "Goff gets a ton of hate but he's essentially the same player as Derek Carr. Good enough if the team around him ins stacked but he's never going to be a playmaker". If Goff and Carr are essentially the same player where would you rank Stafford in comparison to those two and what are your metrics for your ranking? Goff has certainly regressed but people forget that the year they went 13-3 and made the Super Bowl, the offense carried the team. The defense was 20th in the league in yards and points allowed while the offense was 2nd in the league in yards and points. The only time Goff has ever even had an elite defense in his career was last season, their offense carried them. During their Super Bowl season Goff passed for 4,700 yards and 32 TD while the team averaged 33 ppg. And if you eliminate his rookie season under Fisher on a terrible team he has a 42-20 record as a starter and they've had a winning record every year. Over the last 4 seasons... Goff (42-20 record): 17,082 yards (64% comp), 102 TD, 48 INT Carr (25-38 record): 15,693 yards (67% comp), 89 TD, 40 INT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 5 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said: No, you aren't allowed to use hindsight. Steve Young was garbage and had a pitiful record. END. OF. STORY. Manning was a turnover machine to near Cutler levels and was 32-32 after 4 years in the league. He wasn't a franchise guy then. The Colts should've drafted his replacement in 03. END. OF. STORY. Drew Brees shouldn't have been allowed to keep starting after he amassed a 10-17 record. No wonder he had 8 losing (6) or 8-8 (2) seasons. Clearly mediocre anyway. But still shouldn't have gotten the shot. END. OF. STORY. Young was pretty bad and a backup for like the first 8 years of his career and didn't even play in some other random league before he even came to the league? Manning did have a rough rookie season but in years 2 and 3 they went 13-3 and 10-6. They had a blip 6-10 season and then had 9 straight winning seasons where they made the playoffs. Brees had a 2-9 season, they drafted his replacement, and still moved on from him after 12-4 and 9-7 seasons in favors of Rivers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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