The QB Thread: Everything Carr, Stidham and beyond...

[drfrey13]

9 hours ago, NickButera said:

Thinking about this again, if we had a competent GM/HC combo and had drafted well, we would probably have that team by now without even thinking about the cap because we'd have so many guys on rookie contracts that are performing. Right now we have, 1 of those guy? Hobbs?

My problem was this current group still made those signings after it was obvious we had blown so many picks.  They even traded away picks.  I completely agree with your statement but this FO thought they could just add FAs without having a base of good young talent.  That is a huge red flag for JMD and Ziegler.  I had issues with Gruden and Cable before Mayock got to Vegas and it all played out.  We have back to back staffs with very little forward thinking.  Hopefully this one can draft well.

[raidr4life]

55 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

My problem was this current group still made those signings after it was obvious we had blown so many picks.  They even traded away picks.  I completely agree with your statement but this FO thought they could just add FAs without having a base of good young talent.  That is a huge red flag for JMD and Ziegler.  I had issues with Gruden and Cable before Mayock got to Vegas and it all played out.  We have back to back staffs with very little forward thinking.  Hopefully this one can draft well.

They thought the offense which is clearly the strength of this team could carry us, but found out what our last few head coaches have, and that's Carr is inconsistent, it's either 1st half Carr or 2nd half Carr you get most weeks.

[Chali21]

5 hours ago, Darbsk said:

This is a non sequitur, we failed because we drafted poorly not because we didn’t ‘bottom out’ the evidence is abundant in the Me v Mayock and Bigboard threads. Also, didn’t we bottom out in 2013 and 2018? Gruden had 7 first round picks, 3 second round picks and 7 third round picks in 3 years and failed miserably. Inexcusable really.

If we’d had myself drafting we’d have TJ Watt, Andrew Billings, Aaron Donald, Montez Sweat, Jaelen Phillips, DK Metcalf, Ceedee Lamb, Orlando Brown, Derwin James, Hunter Renfrow and a few others I can’t recall, and many others were better than me here, @NCOUGHMAN absolutely nailed the 2020 draft class and a number of other posters would have awesome teams too. We were literally head and shoulders above the abominations that our draft classes turned out to be.

Also, the Browns, Jets, Dolphins, Jags, Panthers, Giants, Texans, Lions, Cardinals haven’t won anything after bottoming out, they’ve mostly had the odd season like we did in 2016 or 2021 where they surprised or just been average to still bad. Maybe there’s one, but I can’t really recall a team that bottomed out and won a Super Bowl or had a run of success a few years directly after?

The Bengals went from the bottom to a Super Bowl appearance in 2 years. Thing is they have Burrow whose amazing. Not sure who the next burrow is but I also doubt they could get him. 

[dante9876]

6 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

My problem was this current group still made those signings after it was obvious we had blown so many picks.  They even traded away picks.  I completely agree with your statement but this FO thought they could just add FAs without having a base of good young talent.  That is a huge red flag for JMD and Ziegler.  I had issues with Gruden and Cable before Mayock got to Vegas and it all played out.  We have back to back staffs with very little forward thinking.  Hopefully this one can draft well.

This is what happens when you hired with a mandate. This season was about showing mark that we lack talent and its going be a process. I thought they had established that coming in, but after trading for Adams I knew mark wanted them to get back to playoffs and build upon last season.  But with the lack of young talent on roster it was a tall ask. But they had to try. 

[drfrey13]

49 minutes ago, dante9876 said:

This is what happens when you hired with a mandate. This season was about showing mark that we lack talent and its going be a process. I thought they had established that coming in, but after trading for Adams I knew mark wanted them to get back to playoffs and build upon last season.  But with the lack of young talent on roster it was a tall ask. But they had to try. 

If JMD knew we did not have the talent and Davis says you do it or you do not get the job I tell Davis he can find someone else.  I would then go back to NE and tell the media why I did not take the job if I am asked.  To say JMD needed to show Mark we did not have the talent is just an excuse.  I do not think Mark said make the playoffs or else.  He may have said he wants to but for Mark to hold onto that goal shows me JMD is not capable of selling his vision and may have set the team back a year or two while having a 3 year window.  It was over before it began.

[NCOUGHMAN]

7 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

If JMD knew we did not have the talent and Davis says you do it or you do not get the job I tell Davis he can find someone else.  I would then go back to NE and tell the media why I did not take the job if I am asked.  To say JMD needed to show Mark we did not have the talent is just an excuse.  I do not think Mark said make the playoffs or else.  He may have said he wants to but for Mark to hold onto that goal shows me JMD is not capable of selling his vision and may have set the team back a year or two while having a 3 year window.  It was over before it began.

I think jmd saw rich do it and was like im better than rich. Let’s add adams tweek the defense a lil and I can coast into the playoffs too. It’s more than x’s & o’s with us. Jmd is like that kid from that movie “license to drive” who pretended he had a l’s and took his grandpa carr out for a date and just totaled it. 

he was 8-8 first year in den imo he has to at least match the 8 wins this year

Edited December 14, 2022 by NCOUGHMAN

[dante9876]

7 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

If JMD knew we did not have the talent and Davis says you do it or you do not get the job I tell Davis he can find someone else.  I would then go back to NE and tell the media why I did not take the job if I am asked.  To say JMD needed to show Mark we did not have the talent is just an excuse.  I do not think Mark said make the playoffs or else.  He may have said he wants to but for Mark to hold onto that goal shows me JMD is not capable of selling his vision and may have set the team back a year or two while having a 3 year window.  It was over before it began.

Your absolutely right. But if you look at the roster last year, did you think we was a number 1 wr and another pass rusher away from being a regular playoff contender.  I didn't. I stood on this team lack talent all offseason and it was going to take more than a few tweaks to make it back to playoffs. Than the adams trade happen and I said welp they going for it. We are keeping carr most likely, by the 3rd year josh would have had 3 offseasons to build the roster, that's when people should expect a roster the can continuously make playoffs year in and year out. That's what I think he sold Mark on. 

[Darbsk]

10 hours ago, Chali21 said:

The Bengals went from the bottom to a Super Bowl appearance in 2 years. Thing is they have Burrow whose amazing. Not sure who the next burrow is but I also doubt they could get him. 

This in fairness is true. Maybe they're just the exception to the rule though, there's probably another but when I think of the really successful teams over the last few decades they seem to have a blueprint.

The Buccaneers built a very good team with great defence and weapons and then added Tom Brady.

The Chiefs had a really good team with a great coach then replaced Alex Smith with Mahomes to take that next step.

The Eagles had an awesome Oline and Dline and have had for years and added Wentz who looked great until injured (possibly a product of a great team around him) then Nick Foles took them to the Superbowl. They now have a similar kind of scenario where Hurts is stepping into that great team.

Seattle built that legion of Boom and awesome defence and run game and Wilson took them to the next level with his playmaking.

The Steelers had a really strong D, had a few playmakers and added Roethlisburger and they find success.

The Broncos had a very decent team with elite defence and added Payton Manning and won.

Baltimore have generally always been a great team builder with great D and they won with Flacco and then added Lamar Jackson. 

49ers are in that zone where they need to add the QB and that will take them over the top, maybe they have him in Lance, maybe they don't but they built the team superbly first.

I wouldn't say any of those teams bottomed out as such and took advantage of that, they maybe had a few down years, but gradually built up the team and then either made astute decisions or got lucky to take them to the next level. 

[drfrey13]

4 hours ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

I think jmd saw rich do it and was like im better than rich. Let’s add adams tweek the defense a lil and I can coast into the playoffs too. It’s more than x’s & o’s with us. Jmd is like that kid from that movie “license to drive” who pretended he had a l’s and took his grandpa carr out for a date and just totaled it. 

he was 8-8 first year in den imo he has to at least match the 8 wins this year

I see what you did there.  The attitude of he did and I am better drives me nuts.  The egos of a lot of HCs in the league makes them blind to real problems.  A situation like last year the circumstances had as much if not more impact on the games for us than our talent level.  This year we have lost to back up QBs and even lost to a backup HC with more talent on the team.  JMD said he in not a motivator and out team has had many flat performances.  JMD seems to be the opposite of KNJ.  As soon as KNJ said he was not good with Xs and Os we should have gone in another direction.  As soon as JMD said he is not a motivator we should have done the same.  You do not have to be a cheerleader but you do need some fire.

[drfrey13]

3 hours ago, dante9876 said:

Your absolutely right. But if you look at the roster last year, did you think we was a number 1 wr and another pass rusher away from being a regular playoff contender.  I didn't. I stood on this team lack talent all offseason and it was going to take more than a few tweaks to make it back to playoffs. Than the adams trade happen and I said welp they going for it. We are keeping carr most likely, by the 3rd year josh would have had 3 offseasons to build the roster, that's when people should expect a roster the can continuously make playoffs year in and year out. That's what I think he sold Mark on. 

I argued the entire offseason that they were being impatient and the time to strike was this upcoming offseason.  I argued with a lot of posters about how our team made it to the playoffs because of our opponents and not out talent.  I said we got a 3 year window but year 1 was already a waste.  Year 2 stands a good chance also unless we get lucky in the draft.  We could draft future All-Pros but the chance of an immediate return is small and made even smaller because of the positions we need.

[dante9876]

13 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

I argued the entire offseason that they were being impatient and the time to strike was this upcoming offseason.  I argued with a lot of posters about how our team made it to the playoffs because of our opponents and not out talent.  I said we got a 3 year window but year 1 was already a waste.  Year 2 stands a good chance also unless we get lucky in the draft.  We could draft future All-Pros but the chance of an immediate return is small and made even smaller because of the positions we need.

Jmd doesn't have to be a motivator if he hire a staff that is. Kyle Shanny hires defensive coordinators who are clearly huge motivators. You can't  be chill, than hire coordinators that are chill. I don't think I've seen any fire out of Patrick Graham. I could be wrong, but I don't recall much. 

[Devilshark69]

18 hours ago, raidr4life said:

They thought the offense which is clearly the strength of this team could carry us, but found out what our last few head coaches have, and that's Carr is inconsistent, it's either 1st half Carr or 2nd half Carr you get most weeks.

Carr is inconsistent, not gonna argue with ya there, but for sh*ts sake, please. Ya gotta include the INCONSISTENT defense as well. In his 9 yrs he’s been here we’ve averaged giving up 26+ pts a game. Of the teams listed above, only one doesn’t have a good to great defense. Does no one believe this might cause Carr to press a little extra? Maybe just maybe? Lol!!!

[Devilshark69]

12 minutes ago, dante9876 said:

Jmd doesn't have to be a motivator if he hire a staff that is. Kyle Shanny hires defensive coordinators who are clearly huge motivators. You can't  be chill, than hire coordinators that are chill. I don't think I've seen any fire out of Patrick Graham. I could be wrong, but I don't recall much. 

Nope, you are correct. Zero fire, he’s as stoic as an Easter island statue. 

[drfrey13]

1 hour ago, dante9876 said:

Jmd doesn't have to be a motivator if he hire a staff that is. Kyle Shanny hires defensive coordinators who are clearly huge motivators. You can't  be chill, than hire coordinators that are chill. I don't think I've seen any fire out of Patrick Graham. I could be wrong, but I don't recall much. 

He does not have to be the motivator but he needs some fire.  Just like a coach does not have to be a great play caller but needs to understand some aspects of it.  A HC does not need to master all aspects but needs to understand how to do it if needed.  I do not want any coaches that say I do not do X or I do not understand Y.  You better be so good at something else that the need for a particular aspect you have no knowledge in is ever needed.  Looking at Graham it seems like since JMD does not value being a motivator in himself that he did not value you it in his DC.  We need a leader as a HC, Coordinator, or on field that has a fire and passion to never let up.  We do not and we wonder why we have had so many collapses.  I would rather have a DC like Romanowski that will tell the players the easiest time to kick a player is when they are laying at your feet.  He probably would have gone over to the OC and told him to get his $h!t together and that the game was not over during our 2nd half collapses.  Gannon would have probably done the same with Carr if he was on staff.  Since the HC decided to build a staff that did not have fire he needs to have it himself.  Although Brady acted and sounded like a episode 4 Luke Skywalker he was still a leader and would not have put up with the breakdowns this team has had.  Neither would BB.

[MrOaktown_56]

No reason not to draft a talented athletic devy qb. I think it would be best in the short/long term.