2020 Minnesota Vikings Draft Class

[Ozzy]

2 minutes ago, Purplexing said:

How do you measure a DL's effectiveness?  Apparently, Stephen is an aberation per the usual, simple 'flashy stats' of pressures and sacks.

How many downs does a typical DL play per year?  There are about 60 plays offensive from scrimmage each game for each team, and 16 games played would make 960 plays if each DL were in on every down.  Of course, there are injuries and plays where subs come in, so let's cut the 960 plays down to 700.... or less.  

A typical, top level DL will record about 10 sacks per season.  Using 700 downs played, or 44 plays per game, that translates to about 1 sack every 70 plays or 1.6 games.   Now, consider pressures and do the same math as above.   Those two exercises suggest tackles and TFL are also a vital consideration by pro coaches of the value of DL to a team.  Finally, consider Krausers' explanation of the scheme employed by Zimmer; i.e. some players are not going to record 'flashy stats' because they are playing a specific role that is important, but isn't reflected in simplistic measures of performance.

Better: use a teams' depth charts for OL and DL to see what their pro coaches perceive as a fair, but not perfect measure of the value each player contributes to their unit or offense/ defense.

They will have to cut one of the DTs, and if they can save a few million in the process by doing it with Stephen that would be the main reason to do it.  To me he has the least amount of upside of any DT on the roster currently.  If they keep him that would be fine as well but honestly keeping 7 DTs, not sure they can pull that off but awesome if they can.  Last time I checked they need money badly and some more guys will have to be cut.

 

And since when is getting a freaking pass rush from the DT spot a bad thing?  You can stop the run and hold down the middle and provide a pass rush during times in the game.  To me the best defenses are ones that can get a interior push which was greatly lacking last year for the Vikings I thought.  With Pierce now on the team, I assume he takes the place of what Stephen did last year and is a better run stopper and gap filler anyways.  

[Purplexing]

I am repeating my prior, recent comment that this 2020 draft is intended to rebuild in 2020-21 by finding young replacements for departed players who will develop into starters, sooner or later.

The Vikings count of 2021 draft picks is probably more than 10 picks (I glanced at the list, but didn't do a count).  I suggest that the players/ starters on the current roster who decline in productivity, or leave via free agency or being waived, will be replaced by: A. the 2020 draft class members who develop as hoped, B. free agency in 2021 (to a minimal degree), and C. higher quality draft picks in 2021 gained by trading up to a fewer count of higher position picks.   

[Purplexing]

8 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

A. They will have to cut one of the DTs, and if they can save a few million in the process by doing it with Stephen that would be the main reason to do it.  ....

B. And since when is getting a freaking pass rush from the DT spot a bad thing? 

Save a few million and lose the effectiveness of the scheme Zimmer uses in a league that is driven by the passing game.

Since a pass rush from 3 other DL and an OLB are other sources.  Especially so when the OLB is cleared by the NT taking two OL in the scheme outlined by Krauser.  That's 'since when'.

Stephen is playing the Gary Larsen role in 'The Purple People Eaters'.

Whooosh! 

Edited April 26, 2020 by Purplexing
add edifying comment about Gary Larsen.

[Ozzy]

Just now, Purplexing said:

Save a few million and lose the effectiveness of the scheme Zimmer uses in a league that is driven by the passing game.

Since a pass rush from 3 other DL and an OLB are other sources.  Especially so when the OLB is cleared by the NT taking two OL in the scheme outlined by Krauser.  That's 'since when'.

Whooosh! 

Think whatever the hell you want to think.  Fact is Pierce is a better NT than Stephen, and does what Stephen does better.  Thus maybe he won't have a job, will see what happens.  

 

They paid Pierce 3 year, $27,000,000, Stephen has a contract of  3 year, $12,450,000.  Big freaking mystery who they think the better player is.  If Stephen gets cut that will be the downfall of the team?  I don't think so.  They kept 4 DTs last season, 5 if you count Hercules as one which he should be this year.  You think they keep 7 this year?  No way, someone has to go and it is not the guys they just drafted.  

[Cearbhall]

I thought Pierce was brought in to fill the role Joseph filled. I don't think Stephen is really in competition with him for his (Stephen's) starting spot.

[SemperFeist]

10 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Fact is Pierce is a better NT than Stephen

True. But Stephen doesn’t play NT.

 

10 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

No way, someone has to go and it is not the guys they just drafted

And it’s not likely the starter from last year, either. With 15 draft picks, they aren’t all going to make the team, and we’ve seen 4th rounders get cut before. So, I wouldn’t ink them in to roster spots just yet. The guys at the bottom of the roster are the ones who get cut. I would say that Jaleel Johnson is the most likely candidate. With Mata’afa and Holmes battling for the final spot. 

Edited April 26, 2020 by SemperFeist

[vikingsrule]

6 minutes ago, Cearbhall said:

I thought Pierce was brought in to fill the role Joseph filled. I don't think Stephen is really in competition with him for his (Stephen's) starting spot.

Stephen is probably starting at UT in base. I don’t think Jaleel Johnson has really shown anything to warrant Stephens release. Unless Johnson has a stellar camp, Stephen probably stays. Guy like Holmes and Hercules probably don’t make the team now that Lynch was drafted. 

NT - Pierce, Watts

UT - Stephen, Johnson, Lynch 

I think it’s unlkely we carry more DTs than this and I don’t see some of the holdovers like Johnson, Holmes or Hercules stepping up in a meaningful way to drastically alter the depth chart. 

Maybe Hercules or Holmes impresses and forces Johnson out. Still not expecting it.

Edited April 26, 2020 by vikingsrule

[SemperFeist]

11 minutes ago, vikingsrule said:

Stephen is probably starting at UT in base. I don’t think Jaleel Johnson has really shown anything to warrant Stephens release. Unless Johnson has a stellar camp, Stephen probably stays. Guy like Holmes and Hercules probably don’t make the team now that Lynch was drafted. 

NT - Pierce, Watts

UT - Stephen, Johnson, Lynch 

I think it’s unlkely we carry more DTs than this and I don’t see some of the holdovers like Johnson, Holmes or Hercules stepping up in a meaningful way to drastically alter the depth chart. 

Maybe Hercules or Holmes impresses and forces Johnson out. Still not expecting it.

I think they’d keep Holmes or Mata’afa over Johnson, if Johnson doesn’t take Stephens job. Both are under contract, or team control, beyond this year while Johnson is not. And i think Watts makes Johnson or Stephen, whoever isn t starting, redundant. 

Keeping 5, you’ve got Pierce as the pure nose tackle, Stephen as the pure base tackle, Watts who’s a nose and base tweener, then Holmes and Lynch as you’re pure pass rushing tackles. 

Edited April 26, 2020 by SemperFeist

[Ozzy]

Jaleel Johnson 29 tackles, 5 TFL, 3.5 sacks, 5 QB hits and started 1 game

 

 

Shamar Stephen 21 tackles, 2 TFL, 1 sack, 2 QB hits and started 15 games

 

Where this Shamar Stephen fan club has come from I have no idea, and Jaleel Johnson is 4 years younger than Stephen is!  I thought Jaleel had a better season last year but whatever, and clearly did not have near the snaps Stephen did.  If our starting DT is Pierce and Stephen that is not much interior push or fear of going up against, but sure might help run stopping potentially.  Either way I hope someone else can take that spot next to Pierce who can provide a little more action.  Hopefully Jaleel, Hercules, Watts or Lynch can do that but will see.  

 

 

[Purplexing]

21 minutes ago, Cearbhall said:

I thought Pierce was brought in to fill the role Joseph filled. I don't think Stephen is really in competition with him for his (Stephen's) starting spot.

Me too.  But, it seems Stephen was used in several ways early in his pro career.  Versatility is valuable when a roster is limited.  Imagine the difficulty of selecting players in the 40 for 60 era!

[Kparty15]

11 hours ago, SteelKing728 said:

I didn't realize we also got a 2021 5th as well.

And since its from Baltimore, after getting totally burnt last season with our trade with them, I hope they STINK this season. 👹👹👹

15 picks this year is crazy!!

The 2021 5th round pick that we trade for was from Baltimore, but it was originally Pittsburgh’s pick.

[Purplexing]

7 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Jaleel Johnson started 1 game

Shamar Stephen started 15 games

 

Correct.

[solidvikingfan]

10 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Jaleel Johnson 29 tackles, 5 TFL, 3.5 sacks, 5 QB hits and started 1 game

 

 

Shamar Stephen 21 tackles, 2 TFL, 1 sack, 2 QB hits and started 15 games

 

Where this Shamar Stephen fan club has come from I have no idea, and Jaleel Johnson is 4 years younger than Stephen is!  I thought Jaleel had a better season last year but whatever, and clearly did not have near the snaps Stephen did.  If our starting DT is Pierce and Stephen that is not much interior push or fear of going up against, but sure might help run stopping potentially.  Either way I hope someone else can take that spot next to Pierce who can provide a little more action.  Hopefully Jaleel, Hercules, Watts or Lynch can do that but will see.  

 

 

Jaleel Johnson has been the nose tackle behind Joesph and cutting Stephen doesn't save much money.

[Purplexing]

3 minutes ago, solidvikingfan said:

... and cutting Stephen doesn't save much money.

It's not always apparent, but those in financial management (e.g. Brzezinski) write contracts in a way that reflects perceived/ expected monetary values, current and future.

Edited April 26, 2020 by Purplexing
typo; a way, not 'away'.

[Ozzy]

3 minutes ago, Purplexing said:

Correct.

Actually my mistake, Johnson only started three games yet had better statistics almost across the board than Stephen.

 

Just now, solidvikingfan said:

Jaleel Johnson has been the nose tackle behind Joesph and cutting Stephen doesn't save much money.

Joseph in his prime actually provided much need interior pass rush.  Who cares if you call it a NT or DT, he got to the QB and greatly affected them, he had 17 QB hits in one year, 10 in a few others along with multiple TFLs and sacks.  That is what the Vikings need regardless of the technical term of what position on the DL they play.   Clearly Stephen is not going to affect the QB that much ever and is a pretty old player compared to Johnson.