2020 Minnesota Vikings Draft Class

[Kparty15]

Per the OL conversation.  I’m not really a fan of Riley Reiff starting at OG for us.  I don’t know if it will work out that well.  I believe that the Washington Redskins might need a LT now though since they traded away Trent Williams.  I’d love to see if they were interested in a trade involving Riley Reiff for Brandon Scherff.

I would be comfortable with a competition at LT between Ezra Cleveland, Rashod Hill, Oli Udoh, and Aviante Collins.  If none of those guys impresses at LT then we can put Brian O’Neill at LT for one season and start one of the other at OT’s at RT until Cleveland is ready to step in.

I really don’t like how easily Elflein was getting beat last year and I think in our offense it may be easier to add help to an OT than it would to an OG since we run so many two TE sets.  Are there any other decent OGs that we could possibly trade Reiff for?

[SteelKing728]

1 hour ago, Kparty15 said:

The 2021 5th round pick that we trade for was from Baltimore, but it was originally Pittsburgh’s pick.

So we are rooting against Pittsburgh, Buffalo and Chicago (even more so) this year. Got it.

[SteelKing728]

27 minutes ago, Kparty15 said:

Per the OL conversation.  I’m not really a fan of Riley Reiff starting at OG for us.  I don’t know if it will work out that well.  I believe that the Washington Redskins might need a LT now though since they traded away Trent Williams.  I’d love to see if they were interested in a trade involving Riley Reiff for Brandon Scherff.

I would be comfortable with a competition at LT between Ezra Cleveland, Rashod Hill, Oli Udoh, and Aviante Collins.  If none of those guys impresses at LT then we can put Brian O’Neill at LT for one season and start one of the other at OT’s at RT until Cleveland is ready to step in.

I really don’t like how easily Elflein was getting beat last year and I think in our offense it may be easier to add help to an OT than it would to an OG since we run so many two TE sets.  Are there any other decent OGs that we could possibly trade Reiff for?

Gabe Jackson from the Raiders is on the block.

[RpMc]

25 minutes ago, Kparty15 said:

Per the OL conversation.  I’m not really a fan of Riley Reiff starting at OG for us.  I don’t know if it will work out that well.  I believe that the Washington Redskins might need a LT now though since they traded away Trent Williams.  I’d love to see if they were interested in a trade involving Riley Reiff for Brandon Scherff.

I would be comfortable with a competition at LT between Ezra Cleveland, Rashod Hill, Oli Udoh, and Aviante Collins.  If none of those guys impresses at LT then we can put Brian O’Neill at LT for one season and start one of the other at OT’s at RT until Cleveland is ready to step in.

I really don’t like how easily Elflein was getting beat last year and I think in our offense it may be easier to add help to an OT than it would to an OG since we run so many two TE sets.  Are there any other decent OGs that we could possibly trade Reiff for?

Why would Washington blow a hole in their line by trading away a player, who’s said he wants to re-sign, for a far inferior player?

[vikingsrule]

2 minutes ago, SteelKing728 said:

Gabe Jackson from the Raiders is on the block.

Don’t think he fits he ZBS.

[SemperFeist]

2 minutes ago, vikingsrule said:

Don’t think he fits he ZBS.

With a sub 5.0 RAS, probably not. Nor do I think they’d take on his contract. 

[Dolmonite26]

6 hours ago, Krauser said:

Stephen’s job isn’t to rush the passer. They want the 3-tech to play like a 5-tech or nose on early downs: control the LOS, hold up double teams, keep the LBs clean.

Excellent analysis of Zimmers defense, however, was Stephen even good at doing this? Iirc, he was graded very poorly in both run defense and pass defense.

I do find it interesting as well that the best defense we've seen in the Zimmer era (2017) featured Tom Johnson, pass rusting specialist, as the primary starter at 3T. Or am I forgetting someone?

[Ozzy]

Just now, Dolmonite26 said:

Excellent analysis of Zimmers defense, however, was Stephen even good at doing this? Iirc, he was graded very poorly in both run defense and pass defense.

I do find it interesting as well that the best defense we've seen in the Zimmer era (2017) featured Tom Johnson, pass rusting specialist, as the primary starter at 3T. Or am I forgetting someone?

Exactly, not to mention Linval Joseph during his two Pro Bowl seasons here had 7.5 sacks 10 TFLs and 27 QB hits.  Tom Johnson during those two seasons had 4 sacks, 10 TFLs and 33 QB hits.  Shockingly Tom Johnson two seasons in a row had 20+ QB hits so overall 43 QB hits in two years.  Yeah they need damn pass rush ability up the middle!

[Kparty15]

38 minutes ago, RpMc said:

Why would Washington blow a hole in their line by trading away a player, who’s said he wants to re-sign, for a far inferior player?

I wasn’t thinking it would be a player for player swap.  We’d probably have to give up a bit more to incentivize them, but my thought process was that having a good LT would be better for Dwayne Haskins development than having a good RG.

[whitehops]

6 hours ago, Krauser said:

Stephen’s job isn’t to rush the passer. They want the 3-tech to play like a 5-tech or nose on early downs: control the LOS, hold up double teams, keep the LBs clean.

 Zimmer likes to play with a light box. They play a lot of nickel. They don’t blitz much on early downs, and they mostly play zone (but unpredictably, so they’re using different zone patterns from a variety of formations).

Having a couple of big DTs who tie up the LOS means they can get away with 6 in the box instead of 7.

It’s not all up to the DTs: Zimmer also asks the DEs to play the run on the way to the QB. The overall approach on early downs is like an old fashioned 3-4 (but with 4 DL) — make the LOS a stalemate and let the LBs and safeties clean up.

The approach allows him to keep an extra guy in coverage, which makes the pass defense better, even aside from the quality of the coverage players themselves.

Even better, a lot of teams will check to a run against a light box (Rodgers does this religiously — always runs against light fronts, never against heavy, which is a major reason the Packers have a good run offense every year). If the Vikings DL is stout against the run, and Barr, Kendricks and Smith make plays, they can usually limit the damage enough to bring up a 3rd down.

i know that's what they like to do, but schematically i think it's better to have someone that can adequately hold up double teams/play the run and provide some pass rush when called upon. that way there's less areas for opposing teams to expose us. if we have Stephen out there on downs 1 and 2 and then bring someone like Mata'afa on as a pass-rushing DT on third down, if they convert they can go no huddle and bully Mata'afa in the run game. Conversely, Stephen provides next to no pass rush ability if he's ever caught on the field in that situation.

 

Ironically, our best defensive season under Zimmer was 2017, when Linval Joseph and Tom Johnson were our starting DTs. Obviously a big part of our success that season was our secondary playing lights out, but also part of it was Joseph and Johnson both providing an interior pass rush and holding up against the run. 

 

so yeah, my hope was that they found an all-around DT to play at 3-tech in the draft that also had potential as a pass rusher (like Gallimore). I understand that we had bigger needs to fill and wanted to wait on DT which is why I'm okay with the James Lynch pick. I just hope he can start over Stephen sooner than later. 

[RpMc]

Good guard play is just as important as it gives the QB room to step up into the pocket and step into throws. 
 

they have zero incentive to trade Scherff as long as he’s saying he wants to re-sign with them. 

[Krauser]

49 minutes ago, Dolmonite26 said:

Excellent analysis of Zimmers defense, however, was Stephen even good at doing this? Iirc, he was graded very poorly in both run defense and pass defense.

I do find it interesting as well that the best defense we've seen in the Zimmer era (2017) featured Tom Johnson, pass rusting specialist, as the primary starter at 3T. Or am I forgetting someone?

No you’re right. Johnson was effective in 2017 as a smaller pass rushing DT. Stephen played a lot rotationally that year but Johnson was the starter and played a lot of early downs.

I’m not endorsing this, I’m just trying to explain what they seem to be trying to do. They’ve made bigger investments at NT than 3T under Zimmer, and the coach seems to appreciate Stephen more than seemingly better players like Richardson in 2018. Joseph was their first FA signing in 2014, and upgrading Joseph was where they spent their money this year, even with other holes all over the defense. They do play a light box on early downs, and they do seem perfectly happy to give up 2-4 yards per carry on the ground (because the DL doesn’t try to shoot gaps, they don’t get many TFLs) as long as they can avoid big plays (the 90 yarder in KC was something like the first gain they’d allowed over 10 yards or so all year, IIRC) and get to 3rd down.

I don’t think Stephen was good last year either, but the entire DL struggled vs the run over the last couple of months. Maybe they put that more on Joseph’s decline (and Griffen‘s), though I don’t think Stephen was any better. Kendricks did have an All Pro year, and that may in part have been due to the DT play in front of him.

I don’t think Jaleel Johnson has been any better than Stephen, but he does have more upside as a pass rusher. If they release Stephen and keep Jaleel as the starter, that’s fine with me. I think they’ll keep at least 2 backup DTs who they trust to play against the run on early downs: Watts and Jaleel would be the two today, but maybe Lynch can take one of those spots.

[Dolmonite26]

Maybe Zimmer feels the return of an above replacement level 3T isn't worth the investment?

[battle2heaven]

It’s all a moot point when James Lynch takes control of the 3tech position and becomes a 3 down player for the Vikings. 

[Dolmonite26]

Just now, battle2heaven said:

It’s all a moot point when James Lynch takes control of the 3tech position and becomes a 3 down player for the Vikings. 

It's not moot to the conversation of how the team manages it's resources and scheme toward the position. Lynch was a 4th round pick, they might really like him but they still didn't like him that much