beardown3231 Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 (edited) 10 hours ago, MonserinNC said: So basically this team isnt going ANYWHERE, unless we are a perfect team for a coach that has not had a losing season yet? This is what sounds foolish. I know this about the Bears but what exactly did you guys love about the GB, MIN offseasons?? MIN especially only lost players QB will easily be better, not great but if you asked me would I trade Trubisky and Foles for Cousins straight up, I would not. The receivers are still an issue, I give you that. OL will be fine. Ifedi didnt get his option picked up but people are acting like he hasnt even been a starting OT on a good team. The D just got BETTER with Quinn. Why would they be worse?? I just dont understand how you all think this 8-8 team hasnt improved?? Even modestly thats 9-7 or 10-6 Who said a perfect team? I said Miller has to be better and consistent. I said the OL has to play a lot better (and for the love of god stop citing Ifedi.. the guy was nothing in Seattle and they couldn't wait to watch him leave). The reason for both of those? Because both of these QB's stink and need ideal conditions around them. Aside from 1 fluke streak(where he had a great OL, guys making every play and a decent run game), Foles hasn't been good. Trubisky's been below average his entire career and sometimes much worse. Do you think either guy can succeed in 2020 based on the play of the rest of 2019's offense? Or with the way either of them played in 2019? Who said the D would be worse? Of course Quinn is a great signing but the D in 2018 was insane. Do you actually think that can be replicated? All of those touchdowns and turnovers? That was 2006 all over again. That was a once in a decade, everything-go-right defensive performance. I'm not concerned about winning the division. I'm concerned about winning a the championship. Edited April 28, 2020 by beardown3231 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dll2000 Posted April 28, 2020 Author Share Posted April 28, 2020 7 hours ago, MonserinNC said: Make no mistake, I will always admit the Rodgers advantage. And our coach has won 20 games. I just dont get the "DONT HAVE A CHANCE" and "NO WAY" attitude. We literally just won it the season before. Your saying plenty of reasons to doubt the team but I forreal dont know what you are talking about. Like RB and maybe WR depth is all I can think of....that and OG I guess. After the 12 wins everyone was on cloud nine because it was a young team and expectation is one of improvement. Last year was supposed to be a title contender and then they were bad from day one. So this year the offseason attitude is one of pessimism. They start 3-0 and everyone will be back and talking championship. Moods shift quickly. You also to have to factor they haven’t been a contender in a very long time and patience is wearing thin. They start 0-1 and O looks real bad then pitch forks will be out immediately. Watch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugashane Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 (edited) 8 hours ago, MonserinNC said: Make no mistake, I will always admit the Rodgers advantage. And our coach has won 20 games. I just dont get the "DONT HAVE A CHANCE" and "NO WAY" attitude. We literally just won it the season before. Your saying plenty of reasons to doubt the team but I forreal dont know what you are talking about. Like RB and maybe WR depth is all I can think of....that and OG I guess. He has won 20 games, and as an offensive HC who is doing the playcalling and put forth the 4th lowest scoring in the NFL. If the defense is killer again then we absolutely will challenge for the NFC North, but you make it sound like we have some dynamic offense of note. I never said we don't have a chance, I'm saying the offense is still looking weak. Last year the middle scoring offense was about 22 ppg. The Bears offense scored under that 12 times last season. You clearly think way more highly of the OTs, TEs (improved but from last year that wouldn't have taken much), QBs, etc. My guess is 9-7 with a WC shot if we get a full season. That's with a change from Tru to Foles and the offense getting an uptick because of it too. Far from doom and gloom. 8 hours ago, soulman said: Is Jimmy Garopollo a franchise QB? How 'bout Ryan Tannehill? Carson Wentz? Foles took over in Philly and beat the GOAT not Wentz. Sorry Shane but I disagree. How I define a franchise QB is a guy who can will his team to win all on his own without being surrounded by perfection at every other position and there are only a handful of those at best. Gimme a dominant defense and a smart capable QB who can avoid costly turnovers and keep an offense moving and scoring consistently and I'll be in the hunt for the SB every year. Franchise QBs tend to be cap killers so they have to win on their own in many cases because they don't always have the talent and depth other teams may have because it's not as affordable when one player is consuming 15% or more of your cap space. You can keep extending or restructuring only so long before you pay the piper like NE had to with a $13.5 mil 2020 dead cap hit for Brady. GB drafted Love because Rodgers is showing signs of declining and because at some point in time he'll be too costly to keep. Not yet, hell no, pretty close but has injury concerns. All are better than what we have ATM too. Eli Manning beat him twice, cherry picking is nice but irrelevant when his career shows he is mediocre at best. He also was let go in favor of Minshrew, Sam Bradford, was part of the reason STL needed to make a move for Goff, had to be a back up for Alex Smith, then a back up for Wentz, etc. Foles also has been deemed replaceable by 4 teams so far (PHI being counted twice of course) and outside of 1 regular season has been nothing worth noting as a regular starting QB. Take out one lucky season and in his 38 regular season starts he has put up 44 TDs. How much better should we expect from him this year over his 1.16 passing TDs per game? Doesn't sound like someone who is anywhere near capable of scoring consistently. Teams that have been in the hunt CONSISTENTLY have franchise QBs, not one year wonders. Brady, Manning, Rodgers, Brees, Mahomes, Big Ben, etc. Look at the NFC Championship games historically, just the last 20 years or so. You have a few guys that pop in there once or twice like Cam, Kaep, Rex, Delhomme who were able to ride great defenses and not blow it for them. But you know what I see? QBs who put up a lot of points. Wilson, Brees, Rodgers, Ryan, Warner, and a number of others who were having great offensive seasons. This is for the winners AND losers of that game. Having a great defense is fine for preseason talk of a title run but consistent results in the postseason need more than a game manager. You're describing basically a Joe Flacco's career, which I would take compared to what we're use to but he kinda got that massive payday too. FFS Soul lol "Pay the piper" while using Brady is where you're trying to scratch up validity to your points? You're way better than that. I'm sure NE fans and the franchise regret paying that $13.5 mil dead cap for Brady and the 6 Super Bowls, 3 MVPs, and 200+ wins that they got with him. Hell we're going to pay over $7 mil in dead cap for Burton alone for almost no results. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. GB, the team with a HOF QB that has owned the Bears and NFC North for basically the entirety of his career as a starter, is looking at trying to get another FRANCHISE QB because they don't want a game manager like you're saying you want? They also replaced Favre with him, and then paid him over $200 million in his career. Declining happens, shockingly, and of course at 36 a franchise is looking at future options. His last two seasons would still be the best two in Bears history by a QB, aging or not. No team is going to choose Foles at $6 mil over Rodgers at $30 mil unless they are looking to tank. Edited April 28, 2020 by Sugashane 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulman Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 1 hour ago, Sugashane said: FFS Soul lol "Pay the piper" while using Brady is where you're trying to scratch up validity to your points? You're way better than that. I'm sure NE fans and the franchise regret paying that $13.5 mil dead cap for Brady and the 6 Super Bowls, 3 MVPs, and 200+ wins that they got with him. Hell we're going to pay over $7 mil in dead cap for Burton alone for almost no results. No. The paying of the piper is now AND the direct result of a one year deal with two voidable years made in an attempt to win again which they did not. It took place after NE had won it's last one (13-3) far more on the strength of their defense than Tom Brady and his offense. Brady couldn't even get them to the 2019 AFCC Game. So that $13.5 mil has hamstrung NE because when Brady signed with TB it forced NE to eat all $13.5 mil this year instead of $6.75 mil in 2020 and another $6.75 mil in 2021. Burton's dead cap hit will be divided into two years and whatever Indy is paying him should offset part of his $4 mil 2020 salary guarantee. So the impact for us is nowhere near as great as it is for NE. They rank 30th with roughly $2 mil. We rank 22nd with over $10 mil. The devil is in the details Shane and you bet your *** it hurt them cap wise when Brady didn't return or just gracefully retire as expected and that in turn may very well impact NE's 2020 fortunes because it left them too cap poor to replace him with an experienced vet other than Brian Hoyer. So do I believe NE fans may be a little pissed? If you knew those I know you wouldn't even have to ask. Much like Packer fans they believe they are entitled or even pre-ordained to win every year. So yeah, they're pissed and feel that Brady hosed them by waiting so long to decide not to return then signed with TB. GB fans used to believe Brett Favre walked on water until he kept playing games over his contracts and on top of that returned to play against them twice a year in a Viking jersey. Their loathing of Favre took years to patch up and for many it never has. They still hate his ***. I have a **** ton of Packer Fan friends too, remember? When you review the details the impact on NE in 2020 is significant. They were unable to draft another top QB so for this year they'll go it with Stidham and Hoyer or so it seems and you can bet that despite six previous SB wins THAT is not making NE fans happy at all. The New England Patriots' quarterback-less NFL Draft was not by design, according to head coach Bill Belichick. https://sports.yahoo.com/patriots-not-drafting-qb-brady-055124260.html So yeah. "I'm much better than that." But then you knew that all along right? LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindyCity Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 Overall Draft Thoughts Positives -Pace did not trade up and did not mortgage any serious assets for the future. -I liked the moves up into the 5th round, even if they cost a future 4, the 5th round is Pace's best and that seems to be the cut off for year 1 contributors. -Kmet is an upside pick, which Pace likes, but at least he has actual upside, and not the wild Shaheen projection. Kmet has elite NFL size ad physical ability and produced against top competition. -I understand the pick of Kmet at 43. Supply and demand made it too big of a risk to wait till 50. The CB talent had a much better chance of surviving to 50. -The Bears are no longer unable to play 2 TE sets and they have a TE who could be a good NFL blocker, that could be huge for the offense. -Jaylon Johnson was an incredible value at a premium position. -The Bears were desperate for speed and Mooney provides that. Ideally, it would be someone more ready for a big role, but they could not continue to be so slow on offense. Negatives -Not really addressing the OL seriously in free agency and draft was an off choice considering how they played in 2019. -Kmet is a projection and there is some risk to him. He does not fit the Kelce mould that Nagy has had success with, can Nagy adapt and use him the correct way? -It would have been nice to add picks for a change. I get that it may not have been offered or provided value, but constantly be short picks is a major pain. -A lot of cleaning up past mistakes this offseason, which makes it feel a little like treading water. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugashane Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 1 hour ago, soulman said: No. The paying of the piper is now AND the direct result of a one year deal with two voidable years made in an attempt to win again which they did not. It took place after NE had won it's last one (13-3) far more on the strength of their defense than Tom Brady and his offense. Brady couldn't even get them to the 2019 AFCC Game. So that $13.5 mil has hamstrung NE because when Brady signed with TB it forced NE to eat all $13.5 mil this year instead of $6.75 mil in 2020 and another $6.75 mil in 2021. Burton's dead cap hit will be divided into two years and whatever Indy is paying him should offset part of his $4 mil 2020 salary guarantee. So the impact for us is nowhere near as great as it is for NE. They rank 30th with roughly $2 mil. We rank 22nd with over $10 mil. The devil is in the details Shane and you bet your *** it hurt them cap wise when Brady didn't return or just gracefully retire as expected and that in turn may very well impact NE's 2020 fortunes because it left them too cap poor to replace him with an experienced vet other than Brian Hoyer. So do I believe NE fans may be a little pissed? If you knew those I know you wouldn't even have to ask. Much like Packer fans they believe they are entitled or even pre-ordained to win every year. So yeah, they're pissed and feel that Brady hosed them by waiting so long to decide not to return then signed with TB. GB fans used to believe Brett Favre walked on water until he kept playing games over his contracts and on top of that returned to play against them twice a year in a Viking jersey. Their loathing of Favre took years to patch up and for many it never has. They still hate his ***. I have a **** ton of Packer Fan friends too, remember? When you review the details the impact on NE in 2020 is significant. They were unable to draft another top QB so for this year they'll go it with Stidham and Hoyer or so it seems and you can bet that despite six previous SB wins THAT is not making NE fans happy at all. The New England Patriots' quarterback-less NFL Draft was not by design, according to head coach Bill Belichick. https://sports.yahoo.com/patriots-not-drafting-qb-brady-055124260.html So yeah. "I'm much better than that." But then you knew that all along right? LOL I'd happily take the one down year where he hurt the cap while taking the nearly 20 years of production. Sign me up annually for that please. The guy still out produced anything we can put forward with Edleman and a host of nobodies on offense around him. And he STILL put forth another top 10 scoring offense. We fielded a top 5 defense and bottom 5 offense. That postseason game the defense gave up 200 yards rushing too. Big difference was they lost Gronk and Antonio Brown but still made the playoffs though, meanwhile the Bears still fielded a top 3 defense and missed it entirely. We haven't even won a postseason game since Smokin' Jay and we have only made the playoffs 8 times since 1990. We've fielded some damn good defenses over the last 30 years and it hasnt really paid out. We've lacked a real franchise QB that entire time, it's not a coincidence. Of course it can hurt you when that guy leaves. So what? It was a godsend for the near 20 years he dominated for them. This is a business, if I get a lot of postseason wins then it would be worth it to have that short time of them being a villain, so to speak. Most of the Bears QBs were so poor they weren't even noteworthy enough to remember. I really don't give a damn about what these guys do after they leave the Bears. I like hearing about Peanut going on to do things and such but it makes no reall difference to me I couldn't care less about their personal lives off the field. Maybe that's shallow of me? Lol Ask NE fans if they'd rather have the last 20 years as Bears fans and not having that kind of "betrayal" or NE fans dealing with Brady leaving like he did. Brady leaving had to hurt, but they aren't trading 2 decades of dominance even if they had to endure a 0-16 season (they won't but I think they are trying to set up for a love up to get a new kid). I sure wouldn't. We will get to see how well that defense does without Brady throwing 26 ppg up though, give them a chance to prove they were the bigger reason for making the playoffs. Lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonserinNC Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 6 hours ago, beardown3231 said: Who said a perfect team? I said Miller has to be better and consistent. I said the OL has to play a lot better (and for the love of god stop citing Ifedi.. the guy was nothing in Seattle and they couldn't wait to watch him leave). The reason for both of those? Because both of these QB's stink and need ideal conditions around them. Aside from 1 fluke streak(where he had a great OL, guys making every play and a decent run game), Foles hasn't been good. Trubisky's been below average his entire career and sometimes much worse. Do you think either guy can succeed in 2020 based on the play of the rest of 2019's offense? Or with the way either of them played in 2019? Who said the D would be worse? Of course Quinn is a great signing but the D in 2018 was insane. Do you actually think that can be replicated? All of those touchdowns and turnovers? That was 2006 all over again. That was a once in a decade, everything-go-right defensive performance. I'm not concerned about winning the division. I'm concerned about winning a the championship. Couldnt wait for him to leave?? They let his whole contract play out and then we are moving him to OG, but yeah just forget that. My point was that the OL did get some attention. Both QB's stink??? We are talking about a former Pro-Bowler(Tru) and a Super Bowl MVP(Foles) The 2018 D was different than 06. 06 was so crazy because our Special teams also was great. Hester was once in a lifetime. 2018 was just straight D. No reason we cant be good again. Hell, we werent bad last year. Im just not of the mind set that things either "suck" or their "great".....Bears did there thing this year. Even looking at a championship, the 49ers are still the favorite. Thats kind of about it, I still think we have a chance. For the Chiefs, I dont know who has a better combination of EDGE guys and DBs than us really except the 49ers. My takeaway this offseason basically is that the Bears are in contention as much as anyone in the NFC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZBearsFan Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 2 hours ago, WindyCity said: Overall Draft Thoughts Positives -Pace did not trade up and did not mortgage any serious assets for the future. -I liked the moves up into the 5th round, even if they cost a future 4, the 5th round is Pace's best and that seems to be the cut off for year 1 contributors. -Kmet is an upside pick, which Pace likes, but at least he has actual upside, and not the wild Shaheen projection. Kmet has elite NFL size ad physical ability and produced against top competition. -I understand the pick of Kmet at 43. Supply and demand made it too big of a risk to wait till 50. The CB talent had a much better chance of surviving to 50. -The Bears are no longer unable to play 2 TE sets and they have a TE who could be a good NFL blocker, that could be huge for the offense. -Jaylon Johnson was an incredible value at a premium position. -The Bears were desperate for speed and Mooney provides that. Ideally, it would be someone more ready for a big role, but they could not continue to be so slow on offense. Negatives -Not really addressing the OL seriously in free agency and draft was an off choice considering how they played in 2019. -Kmet is a projection and there is some risk to him. He does not fit the Kelce mould that Nagy has had success with, can Nagy adapt and use him the correct way? -It would have been nice to add picks for a change. I get that it may not have been offered or provided value, but constantly be short picks is a major pain. -A lot of cleaning up past mistakes this offseason, which makes it feel a little like treading water. This is a fair assessment Windy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulman Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 48 minutes ago, Sugashane said: I'd happily take the one down year where he hurt the cap while taking the nearly 20 years of production. Sign me up annually for that please. The guy still out produced anything we can put forward with Edleman and a host of nobodies on offense around him. And he STILL put forth another top 10 scoring offense. We fielded a top 5 defense and bottom 5 offense. That postseason game the defense gave up 200 yards rushing too. Big difference was they lost Gronk and Antonio Brown but still made the playoffs though, meanwhile the Bears still fielded a top 3 defense and missed it entirely. We haven't even won a postseason game since Smokin' Jay and we have only made the playoffs 8 times since 1990. We've fielded some damn good defenses over the last 30 years and it hasnt really paid out. We've lacked a real franchise QB that entire time, it's not a coincidence. Of course it can hurt you when that guy leaves. So what? It was a godsend for the near 20 years he dominated for them. This is a business, if I get a lot of postseason wins then it would be worth it to have that short time of them being a villain, so to speak. Most of the Bears QBs were so poor they weren't even noteworthy enough to remember. I really don't give a damn about what these guys do after they leave the Bears. I like hearing about Peanut going on to do things and such but it makes no reall difference to me I couldn't care less about their personal lives off the field. Maybe that's shallow of me? Lol Ask NE fans if they'd rather have the last 20 years as Bears fans and not having that kind of "betrayal" or NE fans dealing with Brady leaving like he did. Brady leaving had to hurt, but they aren't trading 2 decades of dominance even if they had to endure a 0-16 season (they won't but I think they are trying to set up for a love up to get a new kid). I sure wouldn't. We will get to see how well that defense does without Brady throwing 26 ppg up though, give them a chance to prove they were the bigger reason for making the playoffs. Lol. I'm walkin' away Shane. I think I gave you all of the facts you needed to know I didn't just "wing it" as you implied. You keep talkin' about the past and Bears fans and whatever which has nothing to do with how things are seen by Pats fans now. They aren't happy. Trust me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beardown3231 Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 (edited) 48 minutes ago, MonserinNC said: Couldnt wait for him to leave?? They let his whole contract play out and then we are moving him to OG, but yeah just forget that. My point was that the OL did get some attention. They didn't exercise his 5th year option as a first round pick. He sucks. Former 1st round picks who don't get their 5th year exercised and then get a borderline league minimum offer in FA for ONE year aren't good. Go into the Seahawks subforum of this board and ask them how many were upset that he left. And if you think adding him and another 1st round bust is "attention," that's your business. Both QB's stink??? We are talking about a former Pro-Bowler(Tru) and a Super Bowl MVP(Foles) Yes, both QB's suck. Speaking of 5th year options, Trubisky's is about to be declined. You don't think that would be exercised if he was worth a damn?And Pro Bowls? Seriously? Come on dude. You can do better. Take away 1 start in Trubisky's career (Bucs) and he's been well below average. In 2018 he was decent because he ran a lot. In 2019 he was s***ting himself half of the time. Foles has been pretty bad his entire career minus one good year with Chip Kelly and one miraculous run a few years ago. People keep saying how he's being reunited with Flip now. He was last year and even when healthy couldn't start over a 6th rounder. The 2018 D was different than 06. 06 was so crazy because our Special teams also was great. Hester was once in a lifetime. 2018 was just straight D. No reason we cant be good again. Hell, we werent bad last year. Dude, no one said they were bad last year. Pay attention. The odds that they can take the ball away 848362 times again and score a bunch of TD's are slim to none. They were pretty good last year, but you saw how average the team AS A WHOLE was last year when the D wasn't playing unbelievable football like they did in 2018. Im just not of the mind set that things either "suck" or their "great".....Bears did there thing this year. Even looking at a championship, the 49ers are still the favorite. Thats kind of about it, I still think we have a chance. For the Chiefs, I dont know who has a better combination of EDGE guys and DBs than us really except the 49ers. Yeah, I think the Bears are one of the 8 best teams in the NFC. Only problem is Seattle, New Orleans and SF are clearly better, GB and Minnesota might be better, Dallas looks good on paper, and Tampa has really improved. My takeaway this offseason basically is that the Bears are in contention as much as anyone in the NFC. I don't disagree if I think like you, because you think the vet OT's will get better, you think Ifedi is good somehow, and you evidently think Trubisky and Foles are good. If all of that materializes, you'll be right. Edited April 28, 2020 by beardown3231 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugashane Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 32 minutes ago, soulman said: I'm walkin' away Shane. I think I gave you all of the facts you needed to know I didn't just "wing it" as you implied. You keep talkin' about the past and Bears fans and whatever which has nothing to do with how things are seen by Pats fans now. They aren't happy. Trust me. Sounds good. A load of bull****, but that's cool. Agree to disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonserinNC Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 3 hours ago, WindyCity said: -A lot of cleaning up past mistakes this offseason, which makes it feel a little like treading water. Your post was great, I think where people are differentiating is that cleaning it up, isnt treading water. Treading water is what we did last year and we wound up 8-8, which is the definition of treading water haha. This year we improved. We couldnt improve every position but what team can? I think its no question we got better on 8-8....12-4 the year before....how are we predicting like 6 wins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonserinNC Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 1 hour ago, beardown3231 said: I don't disagree if I think like you, because you think the vet OT's will get better, you think Ifedi is good somehow, and you evidently think Trubisky and Foles are good. If all of that materializes, you'll be right. So if 2 things improve then we are in agreement?? Haha....Well I think we have ourselves a deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beardown3231 Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 1 hour ago, MonserinNC said: So if 2 things improve then we are in agreement?? Haha....Well I think we have ourselves a deal. The deal isn't if things improve. The deal is if the Bears are a 12 win team you win, since after all, that's pretty much what you predicted in your post prior to this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulman Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 2 hours ago, Sugashane said: Sounds good. A load of bull****, but that's cool. Agree to disagree. Shane, others may allow you to reframe your arguments to suit your purpose as you go, I won't. And if you believe my post was just bull**** then just stop responding to me as I will with you. That'll take care of any disagreements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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