2021 NFL Draft Thread

[RaidersAreOne]

I'm excited to dive into prospects over the next months. I haven't watched much college ball at all yet so going in with an open mind. 

[NYRaider]

1 hour ago, jimkelly02 said:

again.... I’m not saying I don’t like AO at 17.... I’m simply asking what role he’d play.

At defensive end, I think he has the frame to bulk up and be a full time edge player in a 4-3. 

[big_palooka]

8 hours ago, jimkelly02 said:

AO is a great talent but I just don’t see him really fitting a 4-3.  Way to small to be a 4-3 DE (he’s 6’3 240).  You’d need the DC to really craft a defense around him as a SAM.  He’s seems athletic enough to play SAM although would always have some issues in coverage.

he’s a great prospect but id Iike Someone to explain to me how he’d fit this team.

Having watched Azeez his entire career at UGA, I can comfortably say I trust him with his hand in the dirt. He's played the 7 tech and played it well. He's a terrific run stopper who can set the edge. He certainly needs to get into an NFL training program and add some weight, but he's explosive and twitchy.

I'm a fan of drafting those traits and developing the body and roll. As opposed to drafting the "safe" prospect like Ferrell who lacked explosiveness. 

Which is why I liked Brian Burns that year who is similar. Everyone talked about his size, but didn't want to talk about his explosiveness and ability off the edge. Instead the Raiders went "pro ready" with Ferrell and are predictably paying for it. Burns on the other hand is on the cusp of really breaking out as a pass rusher.

[NCOUGHMAN]

8 hours ago, jimkelly02 said:

When did I say a WR like Jefferson is something Carr doesn’t need?  Your taking what I said and twisting it.

i clearly said I think Jefferson’s level of 1st year production in Minnesota wouldn’t have happened in LV.  I feel that’s a pretty consensus statement.  Jefferson had 125 targets.  Explain to me how he gets near that here?  Thielen and Jefferson are the only outside WR on that team.  The only other WRs to get any targets were Chad Beebe (30) and Olabisi Johnson (19).

I never disliked Jefferson as a prospect, I just didn’t like him for us at 12.  

And Jefferson has proven to be a chain moving big outside WR.... which is exactly what Carr needed/needs and exactly why I preferred Lamb at 12.  I didn’t think Jefferson would last to 19.  I was screaming for Michael Pittman with Bryan Edwards as a fall back in round 3.... because he needs a big WR.
 

this may be unpopular but im not mad how things shook out.  I think Ruggs (and Agholor) can open up This offense. 

All it takes imo is for carr to fall in love with a wr. Jefferson imo being a first round wr and available Almost all season guaranteed him at least 70 targets and if he got hot which he did in college and in the nfl 100 targets easily imo. Jefferson is a true #1 wr. 

[big_palooka]

7 hours ago, jimkelly02 said:

Your rationale is what Happened in Arizona with Simmons.  How’d that work out?

so how would you use AO if we drafted him?

Simmons will be just fine. He needs time to adapt in their defense. He was coming on late.

You draft Azeez and play him as a situational pass rusher on 3rd downs as a rookie. Let him adapt his body to the pro game and take over at DE full time in year 2. Pretty simple.

 

[NYRaider]

4 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Simmons will be just fine. He needs time to adapt in their defense. He was coming on late.

You draft Azeez and play him as a situational pass rusher on 3rd downs as a rookie. Let him adapt his body to the pro game and take over at DE full time in year 2. Pretty simple.

Simmons also went to a team in Arizona that is notorious for drafting versatile, playmaking LB's in the first round and then misusing them. They did the same thing to Deone Bucannon and Haason Reddick. It was also a weird fit for him because ideally you'd want to play him at OLB or SS but they had All-Pro's at SS/OLB in Budda Baker and Chandler Jones plus Reddick at OLB who came on strong this season. 

[NYRaider]

4 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Having watched Azeez his entire career at UGA, I can comfortably say I trust him with his hand in the dirt. He's played the 7 tech and played it well. He's a terrific run stopper who can set the edge. He certainly needs to get into an NFL training program and add some weight, but he's explosive and twitchy.

I'm a fan of drafting those traits and developing the body and roll. As opposed to drafting the "safe" prospect like Ferrell who lacked explosiveness. 

Which is why I liked Brian Burns that year who is similar. Everyone talked about his size, but didn't want to talk about his explosiveness and ability off the edge. Instead the Raiders went "pro ready" with Ferrell and are predictably paying for it. Burns on the other hand is on the cusp of really breaking out as a pass rusher.

My point exactly. AO has the bend/twitch that you can't teach and is the trait that usually translates to becoming an effective pass rusher in the NFL. As you said he held up well as a run defender in college in the SEC despite needing to add some weight. And to me he looks like a guy that has the frame that will allow him to bulk up and be able to set the edge in run support along with his explosiveness off the edge to rush the passer. 

People think you need to be a mammoth player to be able to set the edge and be an effective run defender. Go back and watch the Ravens/Titans game from yesterday, Matt Judon is 6'3" 250 and was setting the edge in run support all game which is one of the main reasons they were able to hold Derrick Henry to 40 yards. 

And agreed there again, we passed on Burns because he was considered undersized and didn't "fit the scheme" because he supposedly wouldn't be able to set the edge in run support. But as you said that bend and explosiveness is really starting to shine through in the NFL and he looks like a guy that could be one of the league's premier pass rushers. Through his first two seasons he has 16.5 sacks, 25 QB hurries, and 37 QB hits. While Ferrell has 6.5 sacks, 18 QB hurries, and 18 QB hits. 

[NYRaider]

12 hours ago, jimkelly02 said:

Arizona drafted a very talented player who didnt fit any position within their 34 defense..

He did fit into their defense though. He should've been playing OLB or SS, they just had an All-Pro SS in Budda Baker, an All-Pro OLB in Chandler Jones, and a former 1st round pick OLB who had 12 sacks this year in Reddick. 

And even despite his slow start and odd fit with the Cardinals, he still came on strong as the year went on. 

https://arizonasports.com/story/2498605/cardinals-lb-isaiah-simmons-makes-pffs-all-rookie-team/

https://raisingzona.com/2021/01/11/arizona-cardinals-top-pick-showed-promise-rocky-start/

[jimkelly02]

5 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Simmons will be just fine. He needs time to adapt in their defense. He was coming on late.

You draft Azeez and play him as a situational pass rusher on 3rd downs as a rookie. Let him adapt his body to the pro game and take over at DE full time in year 2. Pretty simple.

 

Of course Simmons will be fine in AZ... he’s immensely talented and they’ll find a role for him.  But my ooont is still incredibly valid: YOU need to put high draft picks in files that can succeed at.  Just throwing them out there and doesn’t work.

[NYRaider]

13 minutes ago, jimkelly02 said:

Of course Simmons will be fine in AZ... he’s immensely talented and they’ll find a role for him.  But my ooont is still incredibly valid: YOU need to put high draft picks in files that can succeed at.  Just throwing them out there and doesn’t work.

And I think AO has the ability to be an effective pass rusher off the edge. His rookie year you probably use him in more of a pass rush specialist role and as he adds bulk in year two he can be a full time edge player. 

[jimkelly02]

34 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

My point exactly. AO has the bend/twitch that you can't teach and is the trait that usually translates to becoming an effective pass rusher in the NFL. As you said he held up well as a run defender in college in the SEC despite needing to add some weight. And to me he looks like a guy that has the frame that will allow him to bulk up and be able to set the edge in run support along with his explosiveness off the edge to rush the passer. 

People think you need to be a mammoth player to be able to set the edge and be an effective run defender. Go back and watch the Ravens/Titans game from yesterday, Matt Judon is 6'3" 250 and was setting the edge in run support all game which is one of the main reasons they were able to hold Derrick Henry to 40 yards. 

And agreed there again, we passed on Burns because he was considered undersized and didn't "fit the scheme" because he supposedly wouldn't be able to set the edge in run support. But as you said that bend and explosiveness is really starting to shine through in the NFL and he looks like a guy that could be one of the league's premier pass rushers. Through his first two seasons he has 16.5 sacks, 25 QB hurries, and 37 QB hits. While Ferrell has 6.5 sacks, 18 QB hurries, and 18 QB hits.

while I’m quoting you on this particular post, this applies to the everyone’s posts on AO:

Again I do like AO a LOT.  I’ve said countless times we need a DE who has bend and speed to beat OTs to the outside consistently.  We have no such players on this roster.  What do OTs do when they aren’t threatened to the outside? Pinch inwards!  And that makes it way harder for all 4 DLmen to get pressure.  If we can add a good speed rushing DE and a good pass rushing 3T this front seven will have massive improvements immediately.  Even if the RDE (AO) or 3T doesn’t get the quick sack when they get pressure it opens up things for the other 2 rushers.  Watch good defenses and the 2nd guy through often gets the sack!  

So Yes I’m very excited about drafting AO because he’s in a class by Himself for pass rushers this year.  He has the traits to be a lethal pass rusher.  
 

There are some prospects who fit perfectly into a system and are plug And play starters.  AO isn’t that for a 43 defense.  You need to modify the scheme for him, which isn’t hard.  But if you throw him out there at RDE (like AZ threw IS out there at 34ILB) and think talent alone wins and no game plan is needed you’ll have some big bumps in the road.

I think AO should be played at SAM on 1+2 downs in a 43 over look.  He can hold the edge and as stand up SAM over the TE he’d likely be very effective blitzing.  You can get him very favorable matchups.  Then on 3rd down you kick him to RDE in a 7/9 tech and let him pin his ears back and attack.

 

Edited January 11, 2021 by jimkelly02

[NYRaider]

12 hours ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

How would you guys feel about Horn in the 1st and Wilson in the 2nd?

I'd be happy with one of AO/Horn in the 1st and Barmore in the 2nd. If we take Horn in the 1st, move Arnette inside to NCB. 

[NYRaider]

4 minutes ago, jimkelly02 said:

I’ve said countless times we need a DE who has bend and speed to beat OTs to the outside consistently.  We have such players on this roster.  

What players do we have on the roster that have the bend/speed to consistently beat OT's to the outside? Also I think AO is a plug and play guy just like Brian Burns was for the Panthers, he's not completely useless or to weak/small to hold up in run support. Khalil Mack came into the league at 6'3" 251 and was one of the most dominant run defenders in the NFL as a rookie playing strictly as a 4-3 edge. 

Edited January 11, 2021 by NYRaider

[jimkelly02]

23 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

He did fit into their defense though. He should've been playing OLB or SS, they just had an All-Pro SS in Budda Baker, an All-Pro OLB in Chandler Jones, and a former 1st round pick OLB who had 12 sacks this year in Reddick. 

And even despite his slow start and odd fit with the Cardinals, he still came on strong as the year went on. 

https://arizonasports.com/story/2498605/cardinals-lb-isaiah-simmons-makes-pffs-all-rookie-team/

https://raisingzona.com/2021/01/11/arizona-cardinals-top-pick-showed-promise-rocky-start/

You made my point here for me.  You take an elitely talented prospect with ability to play multiple positions and toss him in at a position AND Scheme/Role he isn’t suited for and not have success.  But then that player can become successful immediately if used in a favorable scenario.

Again there are some prospects who are plug And Play starters day 1.  But most 1st round draft picks need to have a role carved out For them that fits their skills.  If you take AO you can’t throw him at RDE and that’s it.  You need to make changes to the scheme for them to have success.

[NYRaider]

Just now, jimkelly02 said:

Again there are some prospects who are plug And Play starters day 1.  But most 1st round draft picks need to have a role carved out For them that fits their skills.  If you take AO you can’t throw him at RDE and that’s it.  You need to make changes to the scheme for them to have success.

Why can't he be plug and play? He's 20 years old and is already 6'3" 240, with an off-season in a S&C program he could easily add 10-15 pounds of good weight before the start of the next NFL season and would be the exact same size Khalil Mack was when he came into the league.