Antonio Brown

[RamblinMan99]

1 hour ago, ET80 said:

Those aren't numbers that get anyone in. Pro Bowls are irrelevant because everyone skips out nowadays, so that's nothing. All Pros are OK, but his counterparts (Julio Jones, DeAndre Hopkins) are about to eclipse those numbers, so it won't measure against his counterparts. No real standards were set when he led the league in receptions, unlike someone like Michael Thomas who set the single season reception record.

Compared to his counterparts (who he'll ultimately be judged against) he's not standing out. This isn't the hall of very good. (And this isn't going into the off the field issues).

Dude, nobody from the committee who votes players into the HoF is looking strictly for players who set single season or career records.  This is strictly about Antonio Brown's qualifications for the HoF.  Nobody here is making the argument whether or not Antonio Brown is better than Michael Thomas.  

You are so determined in making your point against mine, that you've completely lost the main debate.  

And by the way:  Julio Jones hasn't been selected to the first team since 2016, so I wouldn't make that guarantee. 

1 hour ago, ET80 said:

No, I understand completely. You (once again) missed the concept. Kicking someone out is a different action than letting someone in. This is basic english you're not seeming to understand. 

Uh, not sure what kind of point you're trying to make here, because both end in the same result so whatever. Seems like stupid trolling to me.  

1 hour ago, ET80 said:

So, you never heard of Deacon Jones. Fascinating.

The sack wasn't a statistic during his time.  They have attempted to calculate just how many sacks he would have had in his career, but 1. they didn't have any set rules on what was considered a sack during his time, and 2. They don't know how many sacks he accumulated each season.  Plus, his tactic of swatting at the helmets of the O-lineman was legal back then, but obviously illegal in today's league, so having that kind of advantage in his era needs to be accounted for.  

1 hour ago, ET80 said:

Emphasis on the bold. You don't get into Canton on short careers. Barry Sanders did, but that's the exception, not the rule. (He was also top 5 in career rushing yards when he retired, so there were numbers to justify his position).

Also - Alexander had FIVE great seasons, Gastineau had two. So, the comparison is bad... Alexander was better in comparison to his peers (87 TDs in a 5 season span, more than AB in 8 seasons...)

Then, Jim Brown would have to be an exception too.  Lynn Swann is also an exception.  Luke Kuechly would be an exception too for a more recent example.  

These are all players who have had short careers and were enshrined into the HoF, and eventually in the case of Kuechly.  I mean, you are living in a fantasy land.  

And no, Alexander had one good season.  You know, the one in 2005 when he had only 27 TDs.  The other four seasons he rushed for at least 1,000 yards, which is really what's expected of a franchise RB. 

Mark Gastineau had FIVE exceptional seasons in the NFL.  If he was starting for most of the season, he was guaranteed to get sack totals in the double digits.  That's why he was a 5 time  All Pro and won DPOY.  You don't amass that kind of success in the NFL for just being "decent."  

Yes, Alexander had more TDs in a 5 year span than other RBs of his time, but AB is the same when you compare him to Julio Jones (which you mentioned him earlier).  They both have been in the league for roughly the same time and Antonio has 20+ more TDs than he does.  

1 hour ago, ET80 said:

 

...but he didn't. The HoF isn't for what you could have done, it's for what you did. 

It is about what you did, but leaving the league at any time is also a choice that the players themselves make.  

Someone like Antonio Brown leaves the league (on his own terms too, because he voluntarily acted the way he did), and someone like Julio Jones will probably stay in the league until he's close to 40.  

That's entirely a difference of choice, and so you have to compare their success level predicated upon their respective timelines in the NFL.  

That's the way it has always been.  

 

1 hour ago, ET80 said:

You're looking in a vacuum when making this argument, completely tone deaf to how Antonio Brown is being viewed right now and how those that vote for him will view him. 

No, that right there confirms that you are looking from the lens of somebody who personally dislikes Antonio Brown.  

Hey, I don't like him either.  I never even liked him as a person when he played for us.  But, I NEVER denied his work ethic and his on field successes.  

So, you need to get your eyes off of the basis of character and look at his numbers.  

1 hour ago, ET80 said:

Dominate is a very strong word, one that wouldn't apply to Antonio Brown's peak. Dominate means you're winning championships (nope for AB) or setting records (nope for AB). 

Many successfully argued that Julio Jones was the better WR in that time. Odell Beckham and DeAndre Hopkins got into that discussion, too. When I think of dominant, I think JJ Watt in 2014, Aaron Donald in 2018, Tom Brady/Randy Moss in 2007, Pat Mahomes in 2018 - transcendent seasons where single season marks were in danger of falling (or actually fell).

What???  And, you're the one who just brought up Barry Sanders.  

Winning championships is a team effort.  Has no indication of a player's induction into the HoF whatsoever (just reminding you of the original argument here, since you've derailed off the track so many times already).  

And, you really seem to place such a high value on single season achievements.  I mean yeah, they're noteworthy for the HoF's selection process, but that's not the only attribute they'll look at.  

1 hour ago, ET80 said:

To my knowledge, AB never got there. He had some great seasons, elite seasons - but he falls short of dominance. (Mostly when Big Ben missed games, it seems...)

That's a really biased and unbased assumption to make.  You can make the same exact case for any other elite wideout in the league today.  

WRs need their starting QBs.  Wow, who knew???  

 

Well, I'm done with this argument, because there's no reasoning with you when you just continue to move the goal posts.  

I mean, none of your points actually made the case for the original argument, which is a shame.  

And, it really makes me wonder why you're a moderator on this board, but whatever.  

Edited May 4, 2020 by RamblinMan99

[ET80]

1 hour ago, RamblinMan99 said:

 

1 hour ago, RamblinMan99 said:

This is strictly about Antonio Brown's qualifications for the HoF.  

Which is none. He never set records, he never won championships, he didn't set any sort of standard across the position. He's a great WR who cut his career short due to his own hubris and behavior. 

I have yet to hear a compelling argument from you as to why Brown is HoF worthy. He had a great run for a few years, but he never matched the production of a Rice, Carter, Fitzgerald, Moss, Owens... Had he continued down this path, he absolutely had an argument. But he didn't (and won't) continue down that path, will he?

1 hour ago, RamblinMan99 said:

You are so determined in making your point against mine, that you've completely lost the main debate.  

So you really think you've successfully stated why Antonio Brown is HoF worthy? Please, go ahead and try to recite your stance without using terms such as "on pace" or "could have". Nobody cares about pace, nobody cares about what he could have done.

Woulda, coulda, shoulda don't get you anything - Football or otherwise.

1 hour ago, RamblinMan99 said:

Uh, not sure what kind of point you're trying to make here, because both end in the same result so whatever. Seems like stupid trolling to me. 

No, it's not the same result. Let me try to break it down like this:

- You interview for a job. You get a job. You get a DWI. You don't get fired, you get suspended without pay. The company has set the precedent that you won't get fired for DWI.

- You interview for a job. Before you get the job, you get a DWI. You don't get the job. The company set the precedent that they won't hire someone who gets a DWI conviction.

Antonio Brown is still "interviewing" for HoF status. OJ Simpson already got the job. Is the difference clear for you now? 

1 hour ago, RamblinMan99 said:

Then, Jim Brown would have to be an exception too.  Lynn Swann is also an exception.  Luke Kuechly would be an exception too for a more recent example.  

- Jim Brown was the All Time leading rusher when he retired, a three time MVP and an eight time All Pro. Tell me, which of those accolades can you say Antonio Brown achieved? 

- Lynn Swann had a SB MVP and three time SB winner (and probably doesn't belong in the HoF, but that's another discussion for another thread). Tell me, which Super Bowl was Brown MVP in?

- Like Keuchley has a DROY and a DPOY on his resume. No such items on Brown's resume. Even then, calling HIM a lock isn't set in stone either, he might not make it in immediately. Patrick Willis is still looking to get in, and Willis was the better player of the two.

1 hour ago, RamblinMan99 said:

It is about what you did, but leaving the league at any time is also a choice that the players themselves make.  

Someone like Antonio Brown leaves the league (on his own terms too, because he voluntarily acted the way he did), and someone like Julio Jones will probably stay in the league until he's close to 40.  

That's entirely a difference of choice, and so you have to compare their success level predicated upon their respective timelines in the NFL.  

That's the way it has always been.  

So you're basically saying that we should not hold Antonio Brown's meltdown against the trajectory of his career because of...his choice?

Seriously, what are you saying here? Antonio Brown and his success level is directly tied to his meltdown - if he doesn't have that, he probably has a better case, as his career numbers and career accolades are improved. If AB plays with the Patriots, puts up 100/1,200/12 last season, he's probably still in the HoF discussion. That didn't happen, because AB is currently out of the league. That's been my entire premise since we started this discussion.

What are you even trying to say here is beyond me at this point.

1 hour ago, RamblinMan99 said:

No, that right there confirms that you are looking from the lens of somebody who personally dislikes Antonio Brown.  

Hey, I don't like him either.  I never even liked him as a person when he played for us.  But, I NEVER denied his work ethic and his on field successes.  

You really don't know how the HoF process works, do you? Why do you think it took Cris Carter and Terrell Owens so long to get in? 

It's a subjective vote, and things such as ABs meltdown, his move to get out of Pittsburgh, his tenure in Oakland and his current suspension will all factor into his legacy - and given he has nothing more than projections he could have achieved, he's not going to have a leg to stand on.

Those voters aren't going to remember what AB did those years in Pittsburgh, because nobody outside of Pittsburgh really cares about what he did anymore. He's just another problem child and locker room cancer to those that vote on these things.

1 hour ago, RamblinMan99 said:

Winning championships is a team effort.  Has no indication of a player's induction into the HoF whatsoever (just reminding you of the original argument here, since you've derailed off the track so many times already).  

You're kidding yourself if you think that someone like Andre Reed is waiting as long as he did if he won a ring. It SHOULDN'T matter, sure... but it absolutely matters, especially when you're looking at a position such as WR that has a backlog of guys who waited a while before getting in.

1 hour ago, RamblinMan99 said:

So, you need to get your eyes off of the basis of character and look at his numbers.  

His numbers are not good enough. I don't know how many times I can say that. I started off by saying he's not top 20 in any specific category.

Food for thought - in only two extra seasons (one if you take out the throwaway season in Seattle last year) Brandon Marshall has better numbers across the board. More receptions, more yards, more TDs. (Look it up).

Is Brandon Marshall a HoFer? I certainly don't think so, but if you're trying to tell me that AB is "by looking at numbers" then Marshall is too. 

1 hour ago, RamblinMan99 said:

And, you really seem to place such a high value on single season achievements.  I mean yeah, they're noteworthy for the HoF's selection process, but that's not the only attribute they'll look at.  

So, please tell me what other attributes AB has. It's not career numbers, we've covered that already.

1 hour ago, RamblinMan99 said:

Well, I'm done with this argument, because there's no reasoning with you when you just continue to move the goal posts.  

I've maintained a simple position: Antonio Brown is not a Hall of Famer. His career numbers or accolades don't support it. Your only response to this point has been "well, they could have if he kept on pace..."

He didn't keep on pace. So, he's not getting in. It's a very simple premise, one that is undefeated in this current discourse.

1 hour ago, RamblinMan99 said:

I mean, none of your points actually made the case for the original argument, which is a shame.  

I'm not the one bringing up Mark Gastineau. My point has remained that Antonio Brown hasn't done enough to make the Hall of Fame. I'm still waiting for a reasonable rebuttal.

1 hour ago, RamblinMan99 said:

And, it really makes me wonder why you're a moderator on this board, but whatever.  

I'm not A Moderator. I'm THE Moderator. My reputation on this board speaks for itself. Yours, on the other hand...

 

 

 

...well, don't quit your day job.

[dtait93]

53 minutes ago, ET80 said:

I've maintained a simple position: Antonio Brown is not a Hall of Famer. His career numbers or accolades don't support it. Your only response to this point has been "well, they could have if he kept on pace..."

He didn't keep on pace. So, he's not getting in. It's a very simple premise, one that is undefeated in this current discourse.

[ET80]

Just now, dtait93 said:

I'm tired, bro. I'm ...just so tired.

[Forge]

55 minutes ago, ET80 said:

I'm not A Moderator. I'm THE Moderator. 

 

[ET80]

1 minute ago, Forge said:

Not now dad, I'm acting like a badass on the internet!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: Badass is not in the filter. Hmm.

[naptownskinsfan]

1 hour ago, ET80 said:

I'm not A Moderator. I'm THE Moderator. My reputation on this board speaks for itself. Yours, on the other hand...

[ET80]

7 minutes ago, naptownskinsfan said:

 

@naptownskinsfan

[naptownskinsfan]

6 minutes ago, ET80 said:

 

@naptownskinsfan

[ET80]

Just now, naptownskinsfan said:

[BleedTheClock]

10 hours ago, blizofoz45 said:

As long as Cleveland is a part of the NFL he has a chance.

What does this even mean?

[Dome]

After he didn't deserve a chance the Saints brought him in for a workout, this was late Decemeber.

He was allegedly told not to bring a bunch of people to avoid the spotlight. He showed up with a film crew and wanted to film the workout. 

You can't reason with him. I think he could come back, but I'm not sure it will be this year. Maybe if we have a delayed season and he has time to prove himself in other ways. It'll be tough.

[BleedTheClock]

5 hours ago, RamblinMan99 said:

Dude, all your arguments are just flat out terrible.  

Dude, all of your posts are just flat out terrible.

[naptownskinsfan]

4 minutes ago, Dome said:

After he didn't deserve a chance the Saints brought him in for a workout, this was late Decemeber.

He was allegedly told not to bring a bunch of people to avoid the spotlight. He showed up with a film crew and wanted to film the workout. 

You can't reason with him. I think he could come back, but I'm not sure it will be this year. Maybe if we have a delayed season and he has time to prove himself in other ways. It'll be tough.

Wow, I didn't hear that one.  Some people just can't help themselves.  

I even think that the Ravens would be one of the few teams, with his cousin and Jackson, who would be a fit at all and could hope to control him, but even then.......that is a volatile person to stick into that locker room, especially devoid of a true veteran to bash his head if he steps out of line.  Earl Thomas and Calais Campbell might fit that build, but even then I'm not so sure.  

[Dome]

2 minutes ago, naptownskinsfan said:

Wow, I didn't hear that one.  Some people just can't help themselves.  

Enjoy

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/antonio-brown-shows-up-to-saints-workout-with-a-camera-crew-and-entourage-per-report/