Can a Case be made for Keenum...?

[vike daddy]

gosh, isn't this horse dead yet? lol.

 

great analysis by perrynoid but it again is comparing apples and oranges - the rest of the teams and their effectiveness as a whole when each QB was under center.

[NorthCountryEvo]

I think it is a bit of a fools game to compare stats of one player in a given year vs another player in a different year. 2015 is not 2017, nor is the composition of the team, the development of certain players, the coaching staff, etc. There are far too many variables to say with any real certainty that those statistics reflect concrete evidence towards one position or another. The context in each scenario is the bread and butter of the arguments, and watching the film of the players is where the real argument must be had.

 

Last we saw Teddy was in preseason football, so that has to be taken with a grain of salt, but things looked very promising. He previously had knocks on arm strength, intermediate to deep accuracy, and the willingness to throw the ball down field. He also was knocked for checking down too much, although not nearly as much as Bradford. Despite all of this, he seemed to show growth in all of those areas in the preseason last year, and with it being early in his career, it feels like those issues could very well be overcome. The biggest downside to Teddy, in my eyes, is his health, and the relative unknown of how his knee will hold up over time, or prevent him from being mobile.

 

Case has played exceptional, though his knocks have been fairly consistent through his career, and the film shows that they are still prevalent currently. He doesn't have top tier arm strength, his accuracy is questionable at times, and he does seem to not always make the best read (or will leave some plays on the field). What he does bring is a willingness to attempt longer/riskier throws, has high energy, and very good mobility. While everyone would love an elite stud like Rodgers to be behind center for their team every year, we have to come to terms with that not being the case for 90-95% of the league, and that average to above average QB play is what teams should expect (while still striving to find a gem like Brady/Rodgers/etc.). Part of me almost feels like Case's play actually suits this team very well: His mobility takes stress off of the O-line (as seen by the low # of sacks) and allows our receivers to continue fighting to get open. He has a willingness to throw the ball deeper and down the field, and that has resulted in more big plays and 3rd down conversions. This is not to say another QB could do this, but I think there definitely should be a question whether or not Teddy can... his mobility is now in question, and unless he plays like he did in the preseason last year, he may not be making as many of those down field throws.

 

I think there is way more upside to Teddy in this offense than there is with Case, but he also is a decent risk at this point. I wouldn't try to fix something that's broke at this point in the season, but it is nice to know that we have the Bridgewater safety net if needed. As far as next year, the ideal situation would be for both Case and Teddy to come back. Teddy would most likely win out a battle through training camp because he is seen as the future of the team (from the looks of things), but having Case around and knowing that he can perform gives you a lot of confidence that the QB position can be set for next year.

[JDBrocks]

Great post! Only nit pick is that while there might have been a misperception about Teddy's intermediate to deep ball, he was one of the most accurate and effective passers in the league for passes traveling 10-29 yards in the air in 2015. It's honestly one of the things that excites me as a fan of this team and the offense that they are running. Teddy dropping dimes on some of those deep crossers or corner routes instead of some of the wobbly passes that we've seen Thielen and Diggs adjust to would make this offense even more potent.

[NorthCountryEvo]

10 minutes ago, JDBrocks said:

Great post! Only nit pick is that while there might have been a misperception about Teddy's intermediate to deep ball, he was one of the most accurate and effective passers in the league for passes traveling 10-29 yards in the air in 2015. It's honestly one of the things that excites me as a fan of this team and the offense that they are running. Teddy dropping dimes on some of those deep crossers or corner routes instead of some of the wobbly passes that we've seen Thielen and Diggs adjust to would make this offense even more potent.

Oh, I agree that his intermediate and deep accuracy "woes" were a misperception, and more of a product of us not passing downfield as much as we do now. I think there was a lot in play with that as well, such as having a poor O-line, receivers who weren't as well suited, having an offense centered around AP, and of course Turner's scheme.

[Dolmonite26]

Can we clear something up?  Case, imo, doesn't have great or elite pocket presence. He has very good, probably great (definitely exciting to watch) pocket mobility. 

It's a difference in subtly sure, but Case is still somewhat erratic in the pocket and isn't necessarily always calm, cool and collected.  Which are all common tropes of true elite presence.  Case has made plays this year out dangerous situations that were occasionally self created, somewhat Johnny Manzie like.

 

To be clear I'm not saying he has bad pocket presence or awareness, just not as great as he's getting praise for.  At least imho.

[Dolmonite26]

I have a genuine question as well.

I've made it clear that I'm in the "Teddy Camp".  Which of course is only because I believe a healthy Teddy is a better QB.

So my question is this: Is it more risky to start Teddy ASAP and potentially takes some lumps as he shakes off the rust but in long run he's ready to go for the playoffs and playing his best when the team needs him?  There's is also the risk of upsetting the apple cart, at the potential of playing your theoretical best QB

Or

Is it more risky to bet on Case maintaining his level of play through the playoffs and if/when he turns into a pumpkin you're now relying on Bridgewater in a pinch without allowing proper time to get acclamated?

 

Long/short of it being: short term reward-long term risk; VS Short term risk-long term reward.

[vike daddy]

here's the much better plan, but it's unlikely to happen...

 

we get a big lead in a game and Teddy plays at least a quarter.

[Dolmonite26]

1 minute ago, vike daddy said:

here's the much better plan, but it's unlikely to happen...

 

we get a big lead in a game and Teddy plays at least a quarter.

Relying on uncertainity to make judgements on an uncertain.......?  Makes perfect sense somehow lol.

[vike daddy]

36 minutes ago, Dolmonite26 said:

Relying on uncertainity to make judgements on an uncertain.......?  Makes perfect sense somehow lol.

certainly does.

[SemperFeist]

8 hours ago, Dolmonite26 said:

I have a genuine question as well.

I've made it clear that I'm in the "Teddy Camp".  Which of course is only because I believe a healthy Teddy is a better QB.

So my question is this: Is it more risky to start Teddy ASAP and potentially takes some lumps as he shakes off the rust but in long run he's ready to go for the playoffs and playing his best when the team needs him?  There's is also the risk of upsetting the apple cart, at the potential of playing your theoretical best QB

Or

Is it more risky to bet on Case maintaining his level of play through the playoffs and if/when he turns into a pumpkin you're now relying on Bridgewater in a pinch without allowing proper time to get acclamated?

 

Long/short of it being: short term reward-long term risk; VS Short term risk-long term reward.

This is why I would start Bridgewater against Atlanta. Ultimately I believe he’s the better quarterback, and if he plays well, great. But if he does struggle, and show signs of too much rust, you can always go back to Keenum who’s already proven that he’s more than capable  of coming off the bench. 

[CriminalMind]

If Case continues to play as he does for the rest of the season and into the playoffs. He is going to command a big contact from some team, thought I'm thinking it's still the big one year deal.

I don't really see us wanting to let him go especially if we can the cap space to accommodate the big one year contract.

Under this scenario, it's hard to see us being able to retain Teddy. Teddy agent might suggest a fresh start with new team etc. So it's hard for me to see both Case & Teddy returning next year, though it sounds nice.

[CriminalMind]

40 minutes ago, SemperFeist said:

This is why I would start Bridgewater against Atlanta. Ultimately I believe he’s the better quarterback, and if he plays well, great. But if he does struggle, and show signs of too much rust, you can always go back to Keenum who’s already proven that he’s more than capable  of coming off the bench. 

We're not introducing risk by trading in a playoff bye or #1 seed to give Teddy a chance, as long as Case keeps cooking reasonably. Case had actually raised his level of play over the last 2 week's, so you can say that Case is improving while facing the stiffer competition

[vike daddy]

After the game, Keenum was asked how he keeps performing well with all of the questions about whether he should remain the starter.

Keenum: “Well, for one, I don’t listen. I don’t listen to what is going on. I don’t pay attention to a lot of those things that don’t matter to me, that don’t matter to how I play. I go out and do my job. I know these opportunities don’t come along very often. I’m not going to sit around and worry and wait and try to figure things out. That is not fair to the rest of my team if I do that, because I’m not at my best if I’m using a percentage of my mind and worrying about other things. If it is not broke, don’t fix it. Let’s keep doing what we’re doing.”

http://www.startribune.com/vikings-fans-volume-made-it-difficult-on-rams/458707503/

[vikingsrule]

3 hours ago, CriminalMind said:

If Case continues to play as he does for the rest of the season and into the playoffs. He is going to command a big contact from some team, thought I'm thinking it's still the big one year deal.

I don't really see us wanting to let him go especially if we can the cap space to accommodate the big one year contract.

Under this scenario, it's hard to see us being able to retain Teddy. Teddy agent might suggest a fresh start with new team etc. So it's hard for me to see both Case & Teddy returning next year, though it sounds nice.

And in this scenario, were probably using an early pick on a QB again. Not the end of the world, the roster doesn't have many holes and the current holes (G and UT) could be filled by current players (Remmers/Isidora, J. Johnson). Can't see Keenum being a long term solution but he's proving people wrong this year.

[Worm Guts]

3 hours ago, CriminalMind said:

If Case continues to play as he does for the rest of the season and into the playoffs. He is going to command a big contact from some team, thought I'm thinking it's still the big one year deal.

I don't really see us wanting to let him go especially if we can the cap space to accommodate the big one year contract.

Under this scenario, it's hard to see us being able to retain Teddy. Teddy agent might suggest a fresh start with new team etc. So it's hard for me to see both Case & Teddy returning next year, though it sounds nice.

I'm sure Case will be looking for a multi-year deal if he can get it.  And I also don't think we will look to resign Case in vacuum, it will be who would we rather keep, Teddy or Case, and what are we willing to offer to keep him here.  I'm sure we'll only be able to keep one, but sign-ability might be an under rated aspect.