seminoles1 Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 24 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said: Kawhi picking Kobe while not playing against him for many of his peak years doesn't really matter since he did watch majority of his caeer...And then played against Kobe who was still great in his first two years of the league...Ditto for Durant. Now some of it could be just that idolized Kobe, that could be true. But someone like Pierce didn't idolize Kobe and played against him and against LeBron while he was in his prime. And of course it is not the end all be all of what their peers think, but when it is split like this between LeBron and Kobe....Then it becomes harder when you bring up a superior player to Kobe in Jordan. Peers opinions and former players opinions in the debate of the GOAT has to matter some at the very least. You (seemingly) brought Kawhi up as having played against both, so if we're going by him playing against both, then it's null void because no sane person would argue that Kobe was better than LeBron from 2011-2013. That's absolute peak LeBron and there's no reasonable argument. Of course he watched him, which was my point about the younger players simply lionizing Kobe. He was the guy all players wanted to be because he was the perimeter superstar while they were growing up. Same thing with Iverson. LeBron doesn't have an aesthetically pleasing game compared to most other all-timers. For a general consensus of course they matter. But I'm not going to let Paul Pierce's opinion (or any other person's) sway me either way. It's all moot at this point anyways. MJ was superior and LeBron can't change that. The next player with a chance is Giannis, so we'll see what happens with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dtait93 Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 7 hours ago, MossyMoss said: First time seeing that clip and honestly I expected a better reaction from LeBron, I honestly think he gave up on that team from that point onwards. Your not the only one who thinks that. All of these guys saw it and anybody with eyes could see it, which is why I don’t care about him filling up a stat sheet for a high game score metric in yet another Finals loss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-ALL-DAY Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 2 minutes ago, seminoles1 said: You (seemingly) brought Kawhi up as having played against both, so if we're going by him playing against both, then it's null void because no sane person would argue that Kobe was better than LeBron from 2011-2013. That's absolute peak LeBron and there's no reasonable argument. Of course he watched him, which was my point about the younger players simply lionizing Kobe. He was the guy all players wanted to be because he was the perimeter superstar while they were growing up. Same thing with Iverson. LeBron doesn't have an aesthetically pleasing game compared to most other all-timers. For a general consensus of course they matter. But I'm not going to let Paul Pierce's opinion (or any other person's) sway me either way. It's all moot at this point anyways. MJ was superior and LeBron can't change that. The next player with a chance is Giannis, so we'll see what happens with him. I mentioned the guys that weren't on the poll that had LeBron over Kobe...And then said two of the best players in Kawhi and Durant also have Kobe as the better player. But Kawhi still played against a great Kobe Bryant....It was short lived but he still got a piece of that. The opinion of Paul Pierce or Kevin Durant etc shouldn't sway what YOU believe. That's not what I was saying. I mean if that was the case, I would to have Kobe over LeBron, which I don't. But it's REALLY hard to make a convincing argument for one guy when the other had a better peak and the peers of the other guy may or may not think he was even the best of his era. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seminoles1 Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 39 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said: But it's REALLY hard to make a convincing argument for one guy when the other had a better peak and the peers of the other guy may or may not think he was even the best of his era. This part is confusing to follow. Are you saying Kobe or MJ having a better peak than LeBron? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-ALL-DAY Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 3 minutes ago, seminoles1 said: This part is confusing to follow. Are you saying Kobe or MJ having a better peak than LeBron? MJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seminoles1 Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 9 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said: MJ Gotcha, and I agree. That's what it boils down to for me. You could make arguments on paper for either player (still favoring Jordan for the most part though), but Jordan's peak during the first 3-peat was just too good. LeBron's peak from years 2-4 in Miami were also ridiculous obviously, but he didn't quite hit the level MJ did in my opinion. Both had their advantages offensively, but MJ was a slightly more impactful defender both on and off the ball. LeBron was slightly more versatile because of his strength and MJ did have Pippen which certainly helped ease the burden, but overall it still seems to me that MJ was better when watching the 2 of them. *I also think both were overrated defenders in their primes anyways. Kobe too 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mox Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 1 hour ago, seminoles1 said: Gotcha, and I agree. That's what it boils down to for me. You could make arguments on paper for either player (still favoring Jordan for the most part though), but Jordan's peak during the first 3-peat was just too good. LeBron's peak from years 2-4 in Miami were also ridiculous obviously, but he didn't quite hit the level MJ did in my opinion. Both had their advantages offensively, but MJ was a slightly more impactful defender both on and off the ball. LeBron was slightly more versatile because of his strength and MJ did have Pippen which certainly helped ease the burden, but overall it still seems to me that MJ was better when watching the 2 of them. *I also think both were overrated defenders in their primes anyways. Kobe too If things continue as expected LeBron is going to end up with the best career and Jordan will remain the best player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beekay414 Posted May 16, 2020 Share Posted May 16, 2020 On 5/13/2020 at 2:49 PM, dtait93 said: I mean what do you want me to say? He put up great numbers yeah I give him credit. But what happened in crunch time? At the very least don’t you agree he should have found a way to close out game 3 in 2017 when Cleveland was up 4 with 84 seconds left? That series should have been 2-2 going back to the Bay. 84 seconds in NBA basketball is a ******* eternity lol. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beekay414 Posted May 16, 2020 Share Posted May 16, 2020 My thing with LeBron is that nobody has ever come in with that type of hype/pressure (the kid was on the cover of Slam at 16) and EXCEEDED expectations. Most players fold but LeBron never did. He failed, he gave up, he showed that he doesn't have the same personality as MJ and Kobe, but basketball skill isn't based on personality. You don't have to be a killer to be great. MJ has the resume, for certain, but LeBron is my personal GOAT simply due to the microscope he is ALWAYS under and he still succeeds and performs in comparison to all-time greats. It's not a slight at all on MJ. MJ's impact is, and will always be, unparalleled. My biggest issue with it all is the pedestal that MJ gets put on, like he didn't have his warts. He failed just as much as LeBron, he just didn't do it on the same stage under the same microscope in an era where people didn't murder you for your failures. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dtait93 Posted May 16, 2020 Share Posted May 16, 2020 5 hours ago, beekay414 said: 84 seconds in NBA basketball is a ******* eternity lol. An eternity where Durant scored 7 straight and Lebron never answered Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dtait93 Posted May 16, 2020 Share Posted May 16, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, beekay414 said: He failed just as much as LeBron Jordan has the higher playoff win % and that’s with going up against an extremely tougher Eastern Conference in the 80’s/90’s than the Eastern Conference in the 00’s and especially the patty cake 10’s. Jordan had his failures, just like every player, but Lebron’s 2011 Finals is the worst failure of all time, especially with that much help, for a player on the NBA’s Mt. Rushmore. You mention Jordan didn’t fail on the same stage. That is correct, but the bigger the stage the more your legacy is on the line. Obviously I would disagree Jordan failed just as much as Lebron, but if you have it that close then his hilariously terrible 2011 Finals performance should tip the scale in Jordan’s favor. Edited May 16, 2020 by dtait93 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsoxsuck05 Posted May 16, 2020 Share Posted May 16, 2020 I would love to see the reaction if LeBron filmed his last season into a pseudo-documentary about himself. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seminoles1 Posted May 16, 2020 Share Posted May 16, 2020 4 hours ago, redsoxsuck05 said: I would love to see the reaction if LeBron filmed his last season into a pseudo-documentary about himself. He'd get hate for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-ALL-DAY Posted May 16, 2020 Share Posted May 16, 2020 4 hours ago, redsoxsuck05 said: I would love to see the reaction if LeBron filmed his last season into a pseudo-documentary about himself. It's going to happen. Kobe also filmed his last season I believe. It's just that it won't mean as much since LeBron's career was seen in the social media and YouTube era. A big reason why Jordan's documentary is so big is that many watching it never watched him play and it is being released 20+ years after his last season in Chicago. You won't be seeing anything like that again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDez Posted May 17, 2020 Share Posted May 17, 2020 9 hours ago, J-ALL-DAY said: It's going to happen. Kobe also filmed his last season I believe. It's just that it won't mean as much since LeBron's career was seen in the social media and YouTube era. A big reason why Jordan's documentary is so big is that many watching it never watched him play and it is being released 20+ years after his last season in Chicago. You won't be seeing anything like that again. Yeah and Kobe/MJ are more interesting because of their mentality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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