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turtle28

Saahdiq Charles has 3rd best footwork in the draft

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, naptownskinsfan said:

You don’t think Jackson is going to protect tu’as blindside? 

Hmm... Haven't thought about that. I have always thought guys should play in the NFL where they are most comfortable, unless they can’t do it at that position. For example, Gallery & Scherff being moved to guard bc they couldn’t cut it at OT. Or, they should - especially as young players - and Jackson has always been a LT, unlike Wirfs who's always been a RT and struggled some there with his technique.

I also am not sold that Tua starts this year.

Edited by turtle28

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3 hours ago, naptownskinsfan said:

Outside of Thomas and maybe Bechton, I see RT for the future of a lot of the tackles taken in the first round, and maybe guard (I'm looking at Tristan Wirfs with that one.).  Charles has a legit chance to stick at LT long-term.

Charles dropped far too much for off-field concerns in my mind, probably because a lot of teams had too much to investigate with other prospects and avenues with limited resources.  However, given our recent trend of looking in the SEC, as well as having a great support system (at least from Rivera's past) for troubled players like this, it was probably a no-brainer after they talked to his coaches.  

Everyone said this was one of the best tackle drafts, but I would disagree.  I don't think there was one left tackle in this draft who was at say a Trent Williams level when he was drafted.  There were a bunch of medium prospects.  Thomas will be good and solid, but not great.  I think this draft may turn into one of the best right tackle drafts, but not left.

I think a lot depends on where they start these guys.

I do think Becton will struggle if asked to start at LT immediately and might turn into a road grading guard.

But I think Wirfs will be an excellent right tackle unless they try to make him a left tackle and then he might end up a guard.  

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From watching Charles, I’m definitely impressed with his mobility and his ability to slide and mirror. 

I just don’t see NFL strength. He had trouble with power at the college level, and it’s only going to get more problematic against grown professionals. He has trouble anchoring against power in pass pro, he packs a weak punch, and his shorter arms cause him trouble because he can’t keep guys at bay with length. Once they get into his body, they can move him with relative ease. He gives you basically no drive in the run game, but he does have good range to get to blocks on the perimeter. 

You have to like the movement skills, especially at his size. That will help him in the new blocking scheme it looks like they’re installing. You also like his instincts for the most part, as well as the fact that he was able to hold up at LT at the highest level of college. But I think he still has a lot of work to do to become NFL strong. I think it’s a total toss up between he and Lucas and Christian for the LT job at the moment. And that’s not a good thing, in my book. 

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35 minutes ago, e16bball said:

From watching Charles, I’m definitely impressed with his mobility and his ability to slide and mirror. 

I just don’t see NFL strength. He had trouble with power at the college level, and it’s only going to get more problematic against grown professionals. He has trouble anchoring against power in pass pro, he packs a weak punch, and his shorter arms cause him trouble because he can’t keep guys at bay with length. Once they get into his body, they can move him with relative ease. He gives you basically no drive in the run game, but he does have good range to get to blocks on the perimeter. 

You have to like the movement skills, especially at his size. That will help him in the new blocking scheme it looks like they’re installing. You also like his instincts for the most part, as well as the fact that he was able to hold up at LT at the highest level of college. But I think he still has a lot of work to do to become NFL strong. I think it’s a total toss up between he and Lucas and Christian for the LT job at the moment. And that’s not a good thing, in my book. 

Is it bad that this read like Geron Christian's profile to me? 

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1 hour ago, MikeT14 said:

Is it bad that this read like Geron Christian's profile to me? 

Definitely a red flag.  Geron Christian is a perfect example of this.  Even last year the pundits were still saying he wasn't strong enough.  

I never understand olinemen who don't come to nfl with a proper level of strength.  It isn't like college weight rooms in big programs are a huge step down from the pros.  300 pounds weighs the exact same amount in your college gym as the nfl gym. 

It would be one thing, if like some players, they are new to the offensive line, like converted from TE in college.  But he has been playing offensive line since high school.  It is all about effort and commitment.  Beyond that it is a question of whether it is possible to develop the strength.  Obviously this is another part of the equation why we were able to get him in the 4th round.  Hopefully he is at home right now lifting heavy objects!

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Posted (edited)

I’m not concerned about Charles. Unlike Christian, I had heard of Charles and watched him play, I had no clue who Christian was and from the moment he was drafted thought we took him at least a round early.
 

I don’t think that of Charles, he has things to work on but this guy was holding his own as one of the best OTs in the SEC last year, he was a key cog in them winning the National Championship. I get the concerns bc Christian hasn’t developed like we had hoped so far and Christian also had strength issues coming out but, I don’t really feel they are comparable prospects.

I will also say that we don’t really even know what we have in Christian yet. I know some don’t like to hear it but, he wasn’t awful when he had to play for Moses for a few games, in fact I don’t remember hearing his name called for a penalty or a replay of him on an awful play. Almost daily I go on twitter and see replays of Moses screwing up - honestly a lot of them are recycled - but I don’t remember Christian having any blooper plays.

I think some are overreacting to Christian being a certain bust as well, bc again he played for Moses in 3 games last year at least part of one game and started two others and he wasn’t bad. 

So, it’s all TBD IMO.

Edited by turtle28

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8 hours ago, MikeT14 said:

Is it bad that this read like Geron Christian's profile to me? 

Almost said at the bottom that he strikes me as a bigger Geron Christian, honestly. 

Which isn’t a little thing, no pun intended. Christian is a great athlete, but he just gets bullied by bigger, stronger players. Charles was carrying 320 pounds at the combine and, while that’s 25 pounds heavier than he was listed at LSU (a red flag in itself), he still turned in a very solid 40 time for such a big guy. So that’s promising, that he can still be an athlete at a legit NFL playing weight. 

I consider Charles to be the better football player at this point than Christian was coming out. Christian had a lot of experience and a lot to build on with his movement skills, but he was just dreadfully underprepared from a physical standpoint. I think Charles is closer to being able to contribute as a rookie than Christian was. The issue with Charles, of course, if he’s too big an idiot to ever come close to his ceiling. And we won’t know about that for a while still — but I think it would be a risky bet to expect this guy to have himself in great shape and putting on strength this offseason, without a coaching staff to stay on him every single day. 

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2 hours ago, turtle28 said:

I’m not concerned about Charles. Unlike Christian, I had heard of Charles and watched him play, I had no clue who Christian was and from the moment he was drafted thought we took him at least a round early

I think that must be because you followed the draft more closely this year, because Christian was more highly regarded by many of the most prominent analysts than Charles. Kiper (38), McShay (64), Mayock (81), and SI (81) all had Christian ranked in the top 80 or so. I didn’t see anyone who had Charles as high as second round ratings. I did see some who said he had perhaps “2nd round talent,” before dropping him down their board for being a knucklehead.

Everybody loved Christian’s upside as a former basketball player still growing as an OT, despite being a 4-year starter at Louisville. He was just too light in the pants, and that hasn’t really changed as a pro to this point. I agree with you that we can’t give up on Christian yet — he wasn’t terrible at RT last year, and the new blocking scheme should be a much better fit for his talents. 

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2 hours ago, e16bball said:

I think that must be because you followed the draft more closely this year, because Christian was more highly regarded by many of the most prominent analysts than Charles. Kiper (38), McShay (64), Mayock (81), and SI (81) all had Christian ranked in the top 80 or so. I didn’t see anyone who had Charles as high as second round ratings. I did see some who said he had perhaps “2nd round talent,” before dropping him down their board for being a knucklehead.

Everybody loved Christian’s upside as a former basketball player still growing as an OT, despite being a 4-year starter at Louisville. He was just too light in the pants, and that hasn’t really changed as a pro to this point. I agree with you that we can’t give up on Christian yet — he wasn’t terrible at RT last year, and the new blocking scheme should be a much better fit for his talents. 

True, I didn’t get into the draft as much a few years ago but it’s also true that I knew more of Charles bc he played LT for LSU. 

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I mean in my honest opinion Christian is a RT. He’s never gonna be able to be a LT in the league.

with that said I think Christian could be a good RT but.... he really has never had the opportunity to do so. He’s been behind Moses his whole career. While Moses has been great at times in his career, he’s also been used and abused as well. But the one thing Moses has always been until last year for 3 games is ON THE FIELD. I remember the other year our whole Oline was out and he played hurt the whole season

I think Christian can be a starting RT especially in a zone blocking system but he needs the CHANCE to play. If Moses continues to regress I think the coaches need to get Christian some reps. If he can hold it down then we cut Moses after the season and save Cap room 

 

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11 hours ago, offbyone said:

Definitely a red flag.  Geron Christian is a perfect example of this.  Even last year the pundits were still saying he wasn't strong enough.  

I never understand olinemen who don't come to nfl with a proper level of strength.  It isn't like college weight rooms in big programs are a huge step down from the pros.  300 pounds weighs the exact same amount in your college gym as the nfl gym. 

It would be one thing, if like some players, they are new to the offensive line, like converted from TE in college.  But he has been playing offensive line since high school.  It is all about effort and commitment.  Beyond that it is a question of whether it is possible to develop the strength.  Obviously this is another part of the equation why we were able to get him in the 4th round.  Hopefully he is at home right now lifting heavy objects!

These guys still have restrictions on how much time they can spend in the weight room and lifting weights.  If you read into the Apple watch story about Alabama, there were huge questions that the Alabama staff would be using this to gain an advantage by subverting the rules for tracking workouts.  From the USA Today article: 

Quote

staff members “may not supervise or conduct such workouts” and that athletes “may not report voluntary athletically related activities to institutional coaches or staff members.” 

So these players, while they have access to the gym facilities on campus, can not work out with the coaches monitoring them unless it is their specific workout day.  Same goes for the S&C staff.  If it's not football season or part of the off-season program, these guys are on their own.  

Now, at a big school, like my cousin was at when he worked as a S&C coordinator, you can easily tell which guys are following the prescribed workouts, and those who aren't, as well as those who aren't taking it seriously.  However, you also have different schools that run different offenses.  At Georgia, you have a pro-style offense, and you just saw just about our entire line taken on draft day, including two first round tackles (as well as one last year.). Sam Pittman's guys are ready to play. 

Then you might have a school that runs a lot of spread and movement, or a triple-option offense and requires linemen to be smaller, and more agile.  Take Ismael out of Oregon for example.  Even look at the scouting reports for Penai Sewell.  If he isn't in a ZBS, there is concern over how he does at pass-protection in the NFL, despite being one of the best prospects we've seen at the position in some time.  

It's not just about being the biggest guy out there, who can lift the most weights.  

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5 hours ago, e16bball said:

I think that must be because you followed the draft more closely this year, because Christian was more highly regarded by many of the most prominent analysts than Charles. Kiper (38), McShay (64), Mayock (81), and SI (81) all had Christian ranked in the top 80 or so. I didn’t see anyone who had Charles as high as second round ratings. I did see some who said he had perhaps “2nd round talent,” before dropping him down their board for being a knucklehead.

Everybody loved Christian’s upside as a former basketball player still growing as an OT, despite being a 4-year starter at Louisville. He was just too light in the pants, and that hasn’t really changed as a pro to this point. I agree with you that we can’t give up on Christian yet — he wasn’t terrible at RT last year, and the new blocking scheme should be a much better fit for his talents. 

And if Bill Callahan can't get him heavier in the pants, I don't really have a lot of hope for him, but maybe I'm wrong.  

Also, I hate to say it, but just because those guys had him ranked so high, doesn't mean much.  If they were so great at drafting, then they would be doing it for a career.  Yeah, Mayock may be doing it now even if Gruden is calling all of the shots, but he was always the one guy who I thought might be able to do it.  We can always find players who the prognosticators fall in love with and don't do well, or they fall down the draft- look at Fromm and Bryant this year on Kiper's board as the most recent examples.  

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On 5/7/2020 at 4:32 PM, offbyone said:

Everyone said this was one of the best tackle drafts, but I would disagree.  I don't think there was one left tackle in this draft who was at say a Trent Williams level when he was drafted.  There were a bunch of medium prospects.  Thomas will be good and solid, but not great.  I think this draft may turn into one of the best right tackle drafts, but not left.

I think a lot depends on where they start these guys.

I do think Becton will struggle if asked to start at LT immediately and might turn into a road grading guard.

But I think Wirfs will be an excellent right tackle unless they try to make him a left tackle and then he might end up a guard.  

I agree on it being a right tackle draft.  I still think Wirfs ends up a guard though.  I see too much Robert Gallery in him.  But at least he didn't go in the top five, as that would make him a certain bust if the rest of those guys play up to their potential.  

I wonder if the Jets have a choice on whether or not Becton starts at LT this year honestly.  Darnold needed help in the worst way, and given that they were linked to Williams beyond the initial FA period, I think they were relying on this pick to start right away. 

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7 hours ago, LoganF89 said:

I mean in my honest opinion Christian is a RT. He’s never gonna be able to be a LT in the league.

with that said I think Christian could be a good RT but.... he really has never had the opportunity to do so. He’s been behind Moses his whole career. While Moses has been great at times in his career, he’s also been used and abused as well. But the one thing Moses has always been until last year for 3 games is ON THE FIELD. I remember the other year our whole Oline was out and he played hurt the whole season

I think Christian can be a starting RT especially in a zone blocking system but he needs the CHANCE to play. If Moses continues to regress I think the coaches need to get Christian some reps. If he can hold it down then we cut Moses after the season and save Cap room 

 

I feel the same way, but I’m not sure I’d even put him out of the running to start at LT. It’s all on the table. It’s not likely that Christian is our starting LT - ever - but nothing is impossible.

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6 hours ago, naptownskinsfan said:

I agree on it being a right tackle draft.  I still think Wirfs ends up a guard though.  I see too much Robert Gallery in him.  But at least he didn't go in the top five, as that would make him a certain bust if the rest of those guys play up to their potential.  

I wonder if the Jets have a choice on whether or not Becton starts at LT this year honestly.  Darnold needed help in the worst way, and given that they were linked to Williams beyond the initial FA period, I think they were relying on this pick to start right away. 

The Jets signed George Fant too. So, it will be a competition for the LT spot and I think Fant wins that LT competition w/ Becton starting at RT.

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