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Mahomes will surpass Brady as the Goat. True or False?


brownie man

Will Mahomes pass Brady as the GOAT?  

108 members have voted

  1. 1. Will Mahomes be the Goat?

    • No Mahomes will never surpass Tom Brady
    • Yes one day Patrick Mahomes will be considered the Goat


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6 hours ago, dtait93 said:

 I think this gets overblown. Outside of 2007, 2011, 2012, 2013, and 2018 there was always a competitive .500+ team. New England was always just so good that they made it look easy.

Wow, one team that might have over .500 record?

I'd like to see the number of starting QB's and HC's and GM's for that matter in all divisions since 2000, as a basis of overall terrible record and general disfunction in the AFC east not the Patriots.

I'd venture to guess AFC East has the highest, or near the highest amount of changes than any other division in that span even with one team having almost 0 changes.  I'd say only the Steelers have that kind of success (close to it) and they have to battle the Ravens which is the team to give the Pats issues.

It's not overblown at all.  Everyone can see it.  Everyone knows it.  It's not saying Patriots are not good, they just benefit greatly from it in addition to being good.  Every bit helps. 

Not playing Wildcard weekend helps.  Playing at home helps.  That can be a difference of 1 or maybe 2 games in the regular season to have to play wildcard weekend and maybe get 0 or maybe 1 home game.  

In general, how did the Patriots fare when they had to play Wildcard weekend and had to travel?

 

Edited by Zalixar
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36 minutes ago, Zalixar said:

Wow, one team that might have over .500 record?

You do realize that’s the norm for every single division don’t you? In that same span (01-19) there was only 5 seasons in which the 2nd place team in the AFCW didn't finish with a .500+ record. 4 seasons for the AFCS and 5 seasons for the AFCN. The AFCE falls right in line with 5 seasons in which the 2nd place team didn’t finish .500+.

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29 minutes ago, dtait93 said:

You do realize that’s the norm for every single division don’t you? In that same span (01-19) there was only 5 seasons in which the 2nd place team in the AFCW didn't finish with a .500+ record. 4 seasons for the AFCS and 5 seasons for the AFCN. The AFCE falls right in line with 5 seasons in which the 2nd place team didn’t finish .500+.

Sure, but that is just first level stuff.  That is why I expanded on it to delve deeper into the AFC East.

There may have been some okay or decent years that some teams did a bit better than .500 and even some that made the playoffs as a Wildcard.  But teams were not good (at least, for a SB run or a deep playoff run).  Not consistent.  They couldn't hold it together more than 1 year or 2.  They are professional teams so of course they will win games.  But there was no team in the AFC East that was "good" or could even remotely duke it out with the Patriots.  Every division has threats to a division leader or at least had competitive teams for awhile for in/out cycle.  NE never really had any threats.  Some good years that an AFC team might be randomly okay that year and jump to 2nd (from say 3rd/4th place) only to sink to the bottom of the division the following year.  You also have to remember those 3 also fed off each other so some teams in the division had to win and get a fluff of wins.  It just never amounts to anything other than a worse draft pick for them.

One year Jets made it pretty far with Sanchez, but c'mon, that was the best team not the Patriots to come out of the AFC East? lol.  The division is dysfunctional every team has to rebuild and start over every 2-3 years.  Rex had a few years going for him though.

 

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10 minutes ago, Zalixar said:

Sure, but that is just first level stuff.  That is why I expanded on it to delve deeper into the AFC East.

There may have been some okay or decent years that some teams did a bit better than .500 and even some that made the playoffs as a Wildcard.  But teams were not good (at least, for a SB run or a deep playoff run).  Not consistent.  They couldn't hold it together more than 1 year or 2.  They are professional teams so of course they will win games.  But there was no team in the AFC East that was "good" or could even remotely duke it out with the Patriots.  Every division has threats to a division leader or at least had competitive teams for awhile for in/out cycle.  NE never really had any threats.  Some good years that an AFC team might be randomly okay that year and jump to 2nd (from say 3rd/4th place) only to sink to the bottom of the division the following year.  You also have to remember those 3 also fed off each other so some teams in the division had to win and get a fluff of wins.  It just never amounts to anything other than a worse draft pick for them.

One year Jets made it pretty far with Sanchez, but c'mon, that was the best team not the Patriots to come out of the AFC East? lol.  The division is dysfunctional every team has to rebuild and start over every 2-3 years.  Rex had a few years going for him though.

 

First level stuff are their main competitors. And their main competitors were really no different than any other AFC division champs main competitor. They simply posed no threat because NE dominated at levels the NFL had never seen before in the salary cap era.

All in all there were 9 Wildcard team during that span for the AFCE. Compare that to 8 Wildcard teams during that span for the AFCW, 10 Wildcard teams during that span for the AFCN, and 9 Wildcard teams during that span for the AFCS.

Now yes, they were never good enough to make a deep playoff run outside of the Jets those couple years, but the subject of discussion was the division being trash. As far as playoff appearances and .500+ teams, the AFCE wasn't any different than any other AFC division in the regular season.

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6 hours ago, BullsandBroncos said:

Only QB with 2 SB wins with 2 different teams.

 

/thread

Peyton Manning who averaged a net 12 points on offense in 4 Super Bowls? The guy who won SB MVP in a playoff year when he had 3 TDs and 7 picks? :P

I love Peyton, but he's the regular season GOAT

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3 hours ago, Zalixar said:

Sure, but that is just first level stuff.  That is why I expanded on it to delve deeper into the AFC East.

 

I'm inclined to agree that on the surface it looks a pss week division for years. But then when I look into it, I see an identical win % inside division than outside. I see Miami as the team who have handed us the most losses per team played against. I don't know if we can put it down to them 3 playing us harder than anyone else, but I very much doubt that. Pats have proven to be hard to beat for most teams in the AFC over the past 20 years, so I don't think they deserve benefit of the doubt.

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13 hours ago, dtait93 said:

First level stuff are their main competitors. And their main competitors were really no different than any other AFC division champs main competitor. They simply posed no threat because NE dominated at levels the NFL had never seen before in the salary cap era.

All in all there were 9 Wildcard team during that span for the AFCE. Compare that to 8 Wildcard teams during that span for the AFCW, 10 Wildcard teams during that span for the AFCN, and 9 Wildcard teams during that span for the AFCS.

Now yes, they were never good enough to make a deep playoff run outside of the Jets those couple years, but the subject of discussion was the division being trash. As far as playoff appearances and .500+ teams, the AFCE wasn't any different than any other AFC division in the regular season.

Patriots are the other team's SB.

Bills didn't make the playoffs for almost the entire two decades.  In 2017 they managed to score 3 points in their debut playoff game.

Dolphins won the division when Brady was hurt.   Lost handedly to the Ravens in the Wildcard  They went as a wildcard a few years ago in 2016 and lost handedly to the Steelers in the Wildcard.  They haven't had a winning record between that 2008 and 2016, haven't had a winning record since 2016.  And only 2 winning seasons between realignment and 2008.

Teams are bound to do okay some years even if they aren't that good.  It is the NFL.  Also, see infinite monkey theorem. 

Jets are the only team that did something.   The only team that could make a case for the entire division not be terrible.   They had Rex Ryan for a while, who was a decent coach.  Jets also were at the bottom of the division more than Miami.

Again, what is the turnover in the division compared to other divisions?  Even Cardinals have had 100000 QB's in last 2 decades.  NFCW was some of the best and worst football in existence over past 2 decades too.  Ebbs and flows in every division.  East just had the Pats and the "flavor of the month" team had a couple extra wins that season to get 2nd place, someone had to.  Of course you have to stil give credit to the Pats for consistency, they are still very good no doubt.  Still hard to sustain success in ghis day in age comparee to the past.

NE of course is really good.  That's not a question.   But you think they would have the same amount of rings if they swapped divisions with the Browns?  

What QB/coach in the AFC were decent enough to remember that could challenge the Pats?  

Pennington? If he didn't get injured every other game.

Can anyone not a fan in the east name a coach/qb combo in the AFC east in 20 years that was at least "okay?"  Bills right now may have a shot at that now, finally.

Sanchez and Rex is it.  That's the best the entire East could come up with and it didn't last that long and wasn't really that good.  They had a solid defense, that was it.

Every division had a run (or multiple runs) of at least 2-3+ teams (and usually 4 throughout) either SB contending, perennial playoff, or ultra competitive so the same team couldn't win it every year throughout those decades

Pats didn't really fare too well when having to play a Wildcard game.  Not saying they didnt deserve or earn a trip to divisional and home playoff games, they just benefited from it.  They also benefited from a division that can't sport a team to challenge them.  Only a couple year window the Jets had and they blew it.  They also realized Sachez was the QB.  Best out of the AFC East not Brady.  Amazing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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21 minutes ago, Zalixar said:

NE of course is really good.  That's not a question.   But you think they would have the same amount of rings if they swapped divisions with the Browns?  

Yes I do, but we’re getting in to if’s and but’s now. They’re not just really good. They’re historically the greatest team of all time that dominated not just the AFCE for 2 decades but the entire AFC. It would have been the same story in any division besides maybe the AFCS with Manning’s Colts. And even then Manning was 4-6 vs Bill/Brady when he was on the Colts. 0-3 when he was on the Broncos.

 

33 minutes ago, Zalixar said:

What QB/coach in the AFC were decent enough to remember that could challenge the Pats?  

You tell me? The Ravens are said to be the team that gave them the biggest challenge in the AFC and they were 3-9 vs Bill/Brady. The Steelers were 3-11. Rivers’ Chargers never beat them.

 

40 minutes ago, Zalixar said:

Every division had a run (or multiple runs) of at least 2-3+ teams (and usually 4 throughout) either SB contending, perennial playoff, or ultra competitive so the same team couldn't win it every year throughout those decades

It wouldn’t have mattered if there were other teams besides the Dolphins, Jets, and Bills. NE consistently dominated everyone and everything.

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21 hours ago, DutchFalcon said:

Brees is not in the discussion for GOAT from me, not even close. He's been hoarding stats for years over wins and that is getting exposed in the playoffs year after year.

And Marino wasn't?  

Brees beat all of Marino's records.  That's just the way it is.  Doesn't mean he's a stat free loader.  

And, I seriously don't get your claim that Brees is getting exposed for losing in the postseason every year.  

Three years ago, he missed the NFC championship because some idiot on defense didn't know how to tackle on the last play.  

Two years ago, he missed the Super Bowl because of the most controversial no-call on PI in NFL history.  

If he were to beat Los Angeles that year, New Orleans definitely would have beaten New England in the Super Bowl, because I think everyone felt much more confident with Drew Brees going into that game over Jared "dork" Goff. 

Brees has been so close to the Super Bowl many times, but things out of his control have stopped him from getting there again.  

Your claim that he's not a postseason QB, and therefore isn't in the all time greatest QB discussion  is just baseless.  

Edited by RamblinMan99
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Just now, RamblinMan99 said:

And Marino wasn't?  

Brees beat all of Marino's records.  That's just the way it is.  Doesn't mean he's a stat free loader.  

And, I seriously don't get your claim that Brees is getting exposed for losing in the postseason every year.  

Three years ago, he missed the NFC championship because some idiot on defense didn't know how to tackle on the last play.  

Two years ago, he missed the Super Bowl because of the most controversial no-call on PI in NFL history.  

If he were to beat Los Angeles that year, New Orleans definitely would have beaten New England in the Super Bowl, because I think everyone felt much more confident with Drew Brees going into that game over Jared "dork" Goff. 

Brees has been so close to the Super Bowl many times, but things out of his control have stopped him from getting there again.  

Your claim that he's not a postseason QB, and therefore isn't in the all time greatest QB discussion  is just baseless.  

 

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55 minutes ago, RamblinMan99 said:

And Marino wasn't?  

Brees beat all of Marino's records.  That's just the way it is.  Doesn't mean he's a stat free loader.  

And, I seriously don't get your claim that Brees is getting exposed for losing in the postseason every year.  

Three years ago, he missed the NFC championship because some idiot on defense didn't know how to tackle on the last play.  

Two years ago, he missed the Super Bowl because of the most controversial no-call on PI in NFL history.  

If he were to beat Los Angeles that year, New Orleans definitely would have beaten New England in the Super Bowl, because I think everyone felt much more confident with Drew Brees going into that game over Jared "dork" Goff. 

Brees has been so close to the Super Bowl many times, but things out of his control have stopped him from getting there again.  

Your claim that he's not a postseason QB, and therefore isn't in the all time greatest QB discussion  is just baseless.  

Yep.

Brees got shafted for things out of his control for sure.  Brees should have been in 2 more SB's.

Brady got the tuck rule call.  Also, his kicker helped him win those SB's, or Tucker missing the easy FG to lose.   All of these players are top tier talent.  Some get more or less breaks than others.  

Someone mentioned something to the effect of comparing QB individual achievement to team achievement (SB's) is pretty futile.  Not everyone has the same circumstance in team, coaching, era, and opponent strength.   

If Jordan never gets a supporting cast I don't think he ever wins a championship.  Bball has more pull with 5 on the court for O/D with Fball having 22.  Would he still be the greatest ever without those wins and all those stats?

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I’m not going to re-post the debunking the AFCE info

I’m not going to re-post the debunking the AFCE info 

I’m not going to re-post the debunking the AFCE info 

I swear I’ve posted it a dozen times now, I should just link it at this point.

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