Mahomes will surpass Brady as the Goat. True or False?

[Chuck80]

On 5/9/2020 at 6:59 AM, RamblinMan99 said:

Mahomes is already better and more talented than Brady ever was.  

Brady was on a good team with a good coach.  

Mahomes is the sole reason Kansas City got to and won the Super Bowl.  They needed their QB for so many years, and they have him now.  

Youngest QB to throw for 50 TDs.  Youngest QB to both win a SB and NFL MVP.  

I mean, he can throw the football with both hands.  He's a QB prodigy.  

Brady was butthurt for so many years over why he wasn't taken in the first round of the draft. 

That's not to say that Mahomes is going to have more than 6 Super Bowls, but he honestly doesn't have to.

He blatantly outplayed Brady in the AFC Title game two seasons ago and didn't get his chance to make a comeback due to the shoddy overtime rules.  

But, I highly doubt that this will be Mahomes's only Super Bowl.  It could be, but highly unlikely.  

The fact that only him and Kurt Warner are the only two QBs in NFL history  to accomplish them feats (MVP and Sb MVP in same season fastest to 80 tds) saysalot about Mahomes and how elite he is and Warner

Edited May 11, 2020 by Chuck80

[dtait93]

7 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

I’m not going to re-post the debunking the AFCE info

I’m not going to re-post the debunking the AFCE info 

I’m not going to re-post the debunking the AFCE info 

I swear I’ve posted it a dozen times now, I should just link it at this point.

You won’t. No balls.

[Hunter2_1]

@Yin-Yang Do it. Zalixar isn't a troll, he's a respectful poster, and it's just opinion - so it would be a discussion. Let's see it.

[ILoveTheVikings]

The slander against Brady on this forum is ridiculous. Mahomes already better then Brady ever was?

...

[Kirill]

1 hour ago, ILoveTheVikings said:

The slander against Brady on this forum is ridiculous. Mahomes already better then Brady ever was?

...

Yes, he is. Mahomes is the greatest talent to ever step on the field. Our GM Brett Veach called him the greatest player he 'd ever seen before Mahomes even played a snap in the NFL. The talent is simply unmatched. We'll see how Brady does this year without Belichick and an easy division.

[Soko]

4 hours ago, dtait93 said:

You won’t. No balls.

 

1 hour ago, Hunter2_1 said:

@Yin-Yang Do it. Zalixar isn't a troll, he's a respectful poster, and it's just opinion - so it would be a discussion. Let's see it.

 

@Zalixar, gonna keep it brief because I’m honestly tired of posting this info, lol.

You bring up a fair criticism - there hasn’t been any consistent HCs/QBs that a typical perennially challenging team would have That said, calling the division trash and “an easy first round bye”, is a massive overstatement. 

- First things first, NE’s win % (Brady-era, all these stats are Brady-era) vs the AFCE is 5th out of 8. They’ve actually faired better vs 4 other divisions, historically. The only division that NE has under a .700 % against is the AFCW at .660. So putting them into any division, while it would certainly alter those percentages, wouldn’t exactly be the death sentence for a bye week that you imagine.

- If you remove each division’s winner out of the equation, the AFCE actually has the best win % (.454). 

- If you remove the winningest franchise in that span out of each equation, the AFCE ties for 4th in divisional rankings (with the NFCN). For reference, this subtracts the Eagles, Seahawks, Saints, Packers, Steelers, Patriots, Broncos, and Colts). 

- The AFCE has the most seasons with multiple teams having 10+ wins. 

- NE is the only team with a winning record vs teams that finish above .500. And it’s a significant gap (.600+) compared to the Steeler’s (.440). 

- NE is also the only team with a winning record vs teams that make the playoffs. And again, it’s a significant gap (.600+) compared to the Steeler’s (.480). 

- NE’s record vs non AFCE opponents? Over .750. 

So while I hear your QB/HC argument (which, if you add context, sort of makes sense - probably a little hard to keep your job if you’re routinely unable to win the division), the actual wins and losses tell a slightly different story. And there really isn’t an argument that dropping NE into any other division (especially if you fairly do it with that division’s best team, so Steelers>Browns) would hurt their record all that much. Especially when you consider their very much above .500 records vs the AFC’s biggest powerhouses.

It’s difficult to sell a division as trash when they are routinely beating the teams outside of their division. And it’s difficult to sell that NE would struggle outside the East when they, almost across the board, beat everyone so soundly. I’m not saying the AFCE is the best or the Pats being in a better division wouldn’t potentially have hurt them - but those two thinks are massively overstated.

Edited May 11, 2020 by Yin-Yang

[ILoveTheVikings]

17 minutes ago, Kirill said:

Yes, he is. Mahomes is the greatest talent to ever step on the field. Our GM Brett Veach called him the greatest player he 'd ever seen before Mahomes even played a snap in the NFL. The talent is simply unmatched. We'll see how Brady does this year without Belichick and an easy division.

If you're going to assess the career of Brady based off one season as a 43 year old...Your opinion is already highly, highly biased.

[Hunter2_1]

@Zalixar adding to that above, Patriots under BB and TB have a .721 win record in the playoffs - better than their regular season record. And they do NOT play AFC E teams in the playoffs. So you need to question whether it really matters that they've been in the AFCE? 

Edited May 11, 2020 by Hunter2_1

[indifference]

Very tall order

Aside from post season success we’re talking about being on top of a division for two decades. I dont think we will ever see that again.

 

[malak1]

Tom Brady has put that title out of reach, IMO, and he’s still playing. 

[lancerman]

4 hours ago, Hunter2_1 said:

@Zalixar adding to that above, Patriots under BB and TB have a .721 win record in the playoffs - better than their regular season record. And they do NOT play AFC E teams in the playoffs. So you need to question whether it really matters that they've been in the AFCE? 

Go a step further, the only time they player an AFC team in the playoff they lost 

[blizofoz45]

The problem with the Brady + rings = GOAT equation is the history of cheating on his team.  It puts a big fat asterisk by a bunch of those rings. So interesting how Goodell had all of the evidence destroyed.  I don't believe for a second they cleaned up their act after 2007.

I think Brady is the best ever because he's consistently been on the money more in crunch time than any QB I've ever seen play.  To me that's enough.  A QB doesn't make pinpoint completions year after year in the postseason because his coach is a cheater.  He did that on his own.

I think it's enough to say Mahomes is a great QB and he gave Chiefs fans a championship that clearly was a result of his skills as an individual.  It's perfectly fine by me if he doesn't become the goat via superbowl rings.

[BleedTheClock]

13 hours ago, ILoveTheVikings said:

The slander against Brady on this forum is ridiculous. Mahomes already better then Brady ever was?

...

Have you ever seen @RamblinMan99’s posts before?

[BleedTheClock]

12 hours ago, Kirill said:

Yes, he is. Mahomes is the greatest talent to ever step on the field. Our GM Brett Veach called him the greatest player he 'd ever seen before Mahomes even played a snap in the NFL. The talent is simply unmatched. We'll see how Brady does this year without Belichick and an easy division.

😖

[Zalixar]

12 hours ago, Hunter2_1 said:

@Zalixar adding to that above, Patriots under BB and TB have a .721 win record in the playoffs - better than their regular season record. And they do NOT play AFC E teams in the playoffs. So you need to question whether it really matters that they've been in the AFCE? 

That doesn't say anything as far as not playing teams in the AFCE other than they don't make the second round of the playoffs almost ever (during this time).  Only the Jets a couple times could manage this feat.  Their Postseasons % is amazing, it really is, no doubt.  

Again, the whole point is not specifically discrediting the Patriots in their dominance.  That is not questioned.  Their postseason prowess is noted.  It's circular thing in that they are a good team - in addition to having mostly home field advantage and a first round bye.  What is the average win % for a team with a first round bye and/or home games? Just curious, I do not know that stat off hand.

Their wildcard record is only 2-2.  All of them at home and didn't reach the SB on those 2 wins. Not really enough data either way to say what their success would be like playing more WC games.  Of course, that's because they do well in the AFC to warrant first round bye.  One loss (or 1 win by other teams as it is very close margin of victory on many year) puts the Patriots in the WC, who knows how well they have to fare playing an extra game.  It is less likely to play a WC game and win a SB. 

One of my statements is:  Patriots benefit greatly from not playing WC games.  Is this true or untrue?  Not counting anything else.  Wins are earned and they earned first round.  The statement is the benefit from not playing WC games.  Doesn't mean other teams couldn't have won 1 or 2 more games to earn that first round bye and bump the Patriots to the WC round sometimes, playing an extra game without rest is tougher, no? 

16 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

 

 

 

 

- First things first, NE’s win % (Brady-era, all these stats are Brady-era) vs the AFCE is 5th out of 8. They’ve actually faired better vs 4 other divisions, historically. The only division that NE has under a .700 % against is the AFCW at .660. So putting them into any division, while it would certainly alter those percentages, wouldn’t exactly be the death sentence for a bye week that you imagine.

- If you remove each division’s winner out of the equation, the AFCE actually has the best win % (.454). 

- If you remove the winningest franchise in that span out of each equation, the AFCE ties for 4th in divisional rankings (with the NFCN). For reference, this subtracts the Eagles, Seahawks, Saints, Packers, Steelers, Patriots, Broncos, and Colts). 

- The AFCE has the most seasons with multiple teams having 10+ wins. 

- NE is the only team with a winning record vs teams that finish above .500. And it’s a significant gap (.600+) compared to the Steeler’s (.440). 

- NE is also the only team with a winning record vs teams that make the playoffs. And again, it’s a significant gap (.600+) compared to the Steeler’s (.480). 

- NE’s record vs non AFCE opponents? Over .750. 

 

 

Regular season wins more or less don't matter for non playoff teams.  Instead of taking generics.  Let's talk depth.

Bills:  Had the longest current drought of playoff entry of any team.  They managed to make the playoffs in 1999 with a first round exit BB (Before Brady) and then for the first time in 2017.  They managed to score 3 points in a first round exit.  They did return to the playoffs in 2019 to lose again in the first round.  They had some 9 win seasons mixed in with many bad seasons.  Did they have a QB or Coach that could do anything in the AFC East other than pickup a few wins here and there over this span?  A couple Fitzmagic seasons?  Were they ever a threat to the Patriots or make the playoffs as a WC or even were relevant at any point in the past 20 years?  Maybe in 2019.  But mostly in outlook of 2019 and beyond.

So that's one team that is possibly the worst of any team in the league in this span - in the AFC East.  There are some teams with a lower win %, but EVERY other team either had some relevance for a time or had a real shot at the SB in the past 2 decades (except the Browns, sorry Browns).  Patriots are only 2 games.  They couldn't muster anything else during this time span?

Dolphins:  Well, they made the WC in 2001 when Tom Brady started playing (week 2) and when the Patriots started their dynasty.  Awesome in 11 wins that year, really great for numbers!  They had a first round exit scoring 3 points.  Now not sure if 2000 is counted for Dolphins BB (Before Brady) win % that's mentioned, but they did manage to have another 11 win season.  Won in OT in the WC and then routed with 0 scored points in the divisional.  But that's BB so that's just there for discussion.

They did nothing relevant until 2008.  To be fair, they had a 10 win season in 2003, great for numbers, no playoffs so doesn't count for anything.  They went to 4 wins and bottom of the division the following year.  You can ping pong them back to the next year with 9-7 (winning record, woot!), only to see they were a 1 win team the following year - 2 winning seasons in this 4 year span?  Must be an amazing team - better can be said for many teams if you looked at a 4 year window.  But were they that good of a team?  Really?

Oh, 2008 was magical for the Dolphins.  Fully taking advantage of a Brady-less Patriots (who still did better than most teams without him).  Pennington, his only 2nd full season playing with the electrifying Ronnie Brown and Ricky Williams combo.   That was some great football.  This was the only year the Pennington did anything with the Dolphins, but spiking up that nice 11 win season for win % numbers.  They were routed scoring 9 points in a first round exit.

They wouldn't have another winning season again until 2016 and their last winning season .  They got routed with 12 points scored in a first round exit.

So, some great (statistically in win %) regular season Dolphin seasons (and some decent seasons sprinkled in with Tannehill), wow!  Were they ever a threat to do anything?  At any point?  Did they have an ounce of consistency or relevance other than a couple (non consecutive) off years that happen to be good?  Hey, at least they capitalized off playing a 4th place schedule, only to be put back into their place.  What QB played for the Dolphins not Pennington for 1 year?  Tannehill, who has been pretty okay, but no one ever thought they had a good team.  This was the best the Dolphins could come up with and it was all dissolved because it just wasn't good enough.  It couldn't muster up more than 1 winning season.

Well, that's TWO of the THREE teams in the AFCE not the Patriots, well, not really looking so good really.  Maybe I need to also look at other division worst 2 teams in the span of the last two decades and see if any division compares to 99% non relevance or a shred of consistency for two teams in the same division. 

J-E-T-S:  Again, this is the only redeeming team of the division not the Patriots.  Pennington had a couple great years and could have probably done something but could never stay healthy.  Really unfortunate really.  2004 was a pretty solid year for them and that would have been the Championship vs the Patriots that would have been fun.  So close.

2006 Pennington again after missing 2005.  First round exit to Patriots, relatively close game.  Pennington's health was too much of a factor and the Jets realized Mangini was their coach, lol.

2008 was interesting...had a winning record, great for stats!  But this was Favre's year...well, Favre is pretty good and the team was okay but I don't think anyone thought they were going to do anything.  They missed the playoffs.

Jets rebound with Ryan and Sanchez.  Had some potential, but was rough.  Solid defense.  Made it to the Championship in 09 and lost to Manning.  2010 was their year - they could made it to the SB this year and they blew it.  Had some...okay-ish years but it was the end of the Sanchez era pretty quickly.  I think they realized they had Sanchez as their QB.  Onto ->> Geno Smith!  lol.  Another 8-8, I guess you can say decent season, but did they really have ANY potential? No.

They finally plummet to the bottom of the division the following year with 4 wins.  Only to rebound with a nice 10-6 season with Fitzmagic!  This guy, doing some work that's for sure.  Was his team or the Jets finally a threat now? Well, with the following 3 years at the bottom of the division with 4, 4, 5 wins, I am going to say no.

But hey, they got a nice top 5 pick QB now that's going to turn it around...maybe.  We shall see.

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Patriots are the best franchise to exist in this dynasty no questions ask, never questioned that.  Yes, they did own teams with Manning, Rivers, etc.  But teams without those QB's did beat them, and beat them in the playoffs.  Playoffs get tricky with 1 round elimination. 

They also happen to play in a division that couldn't get their head out of their *** and compete for more than 1 or 2 years at a time, or more than 3 years in 2 decades.  So while they were doing awesome, other divisions had to compete with their own divisions, going through their ebbs and flows, duking it out with  (normally) 3 or 4 teams continuously.  Each of those teams drafting and scheming to win THEIR division (which didn't always work vs Patriots).  Patriots got to just do their own thing and focus the long game.

Getting first round byes is an AMAZING advantage that helped catapult their win % (which is probably why its better than regular season, dontcha think?) in addition to an already great team.

My original main points:

1:  Patriots benefited from not playing WC games.

2:  Patriots benefited from a trash (let's just say lesser) division.

Looking at those 3 teams, sorry, you cannot convince me those teams (collectively) were not worse than any other 3 teams in any division.  Namely cause teams rotated mostly in divisions and even bad teams were good at some point or had potential for awhile (except you Browns, sorry.  Although maybe now is okay for them, maybe).  AFCE again, had the Jets for a few years, but man did that quickly dissipate and really only had a few potential years that fell apart rather quickly.  Other than that, nothing other than some fluff regular season wins and swift 1st round exits, followed up with last place in the division the following year to really show what a solid team they were. 

I just think maybe they win ~4 instead of 6 if a couple things don't go their way playing a few more WC games and or some decent competition in the AFCE.  We can also get into a discussion of the Tuck rule and how the Patriot's FG kicker really helped the SB wins and frankly does NOT get enough credit, or any credit for that matter.  But you could also say they got got unlucky with the Tyree catch, etc.  Perhaps that evens out a bit.

Great, thanks for coming to my ted talk.

 

Edit:  Typos here and there.

 

I'll add relevance to the main post. 

As it was mentioned somewhere, Reid is much older than where Belichick was when starting with Brady.  Andy is a top tier coach.  Mahomes' physical talent is really off the charts for all around everything.  I think he has/will have stiffer competition in the AFCW (although, who knows what the ebbs and flows will be for the time he is QB).  He is off to the hottest start of anyone in the NFL, so he certainly is on the right track.  It just has to be put together.  Football - and SB are team wins.  Giving Brady the credit for his 6 rings is asinine.  Most people may never reach 2 rings and even the greats won't ever reach 2.  Brees has only 1 All-Pro - and 1 SB, where does he rank on your list?

I know, a lot can be debated over and over with Marino, etc.  But whatever it is, Mahomes has it.  He has the ability and the potential to pass Tom Brady as the GOAT.  But he does have to have a team and not everything is in his hands.  All he can do is play lights out and let the cards fall where they may.  Maybe he can do it for a long time.  Main thing is staying healthy though.  That will be greatest factor of his timeline, not skill.

 

Edited May 12, 2020 by Zalixar