MVP’s you did not agree with

[KingOfNewYork]

Brady over Wentz. 

[DannyB]

3 hours ago, Starless said:

Plus, Alexander's only big advantage over Barber was in touchdowns, and 18 of his 27 came from inside 5 yards while Barber had Brandon Jacobs vulturing his goal line carries. 

I'm generally more impressed by big yardage than big TD numbers. I think yardage is a better gauge for how good a RB is, and generally TDs just sorta...happen sometimes, unless you are SPECIFICALLY a goal line back. However, it's a sliding scale, and at a certain point the difference in touchdowns comes into play. I mean...27 is a LOT. Also, do you know how hard it is to run for a TD from the 5 yard line?? That's NOT just falling forward into a pile. 10 of SA's were from the 1, while 8 were from further back.

Furthermore, if we're bringing up surrounding talent, Tiki Barber had Hall of Famer Eli Manning (at least that's what everybody tells me) under center!

Man the more I think about it, the weirder that argument is: Tiki Barber could have had more rushing touchdowns if the team let him have more rushing touchdowns. I mean...okay!? Probably? But he didn't.

Shaun probably could have had more if he got more carries within the 5 yard line rather than Hasselbeck throwing for a TD, which happened 5 times that season.

[DannyB]

3 minutes ago, KingOfTheDot said:

Brady over Wentz. 

That one's tough, but there's an argument to be made. The completion percentage is probably the biggest thing that is holding me back, but it is really close.

[Apparition]

26 minutes ago, DannyB said:

Furthermore, if we're bringing up surrounding talent, Tiki Barber had Hall of Famer Eli Manning (at least that's what everybody tells me) under center!

The same Eli Manning whose adjusted passing numbers were average or below average across the board that year? 🤨

Tiki's 2390 yards from scrimmage that year were the 2nd most ever in a season up to that point. He only lost out on the rushing title by 20 yards, but he also had 530 yards on 54 receptions, compared to Alexander's 78 yards on 15 catches. He also averaged more yards per carry despite running behind a lesser OL (not a bad one, but remember, the Seahawks line had two Hall of Famers and another Pro Bowler in Robbie Tobeck). Tiki also fumbled only once all season, compared to Alexander's 5, despite having more touches. 
 

Edited May 10, 2020 by Starless

[Apparition]

40 minutes ago, KingOfTheDot said:

Brady over Wentz. 

Wentz would've won it if he hadn't gotten hurt. 

But then the Eagles wouldn't have won the Super Bowl. 

Edited May 10, 2020 by Starless

[DannyB]

52 minutes ago, Starless said:

The same Eli Manning whose adjusted passing numbers were average or below average across the board that year? 🤨

Tiki's 2390 yards from scrimmage that year were the 2nd most ever in a season up to that point. He only lost out on the rushing title by 20 yards, but he also had 530 yards on 54 receptions, compared to Alexander's 78 yards on 15 catches. He also averaged more yards per carry despite running behind a lesser OL (not a bad one, but remember, the Seahawks line had two Hall of Famers and another Pro Bowler in Robbie Tobeck). Tiki also fumbled only once all season, compared to Alexander's 5, despite having more touches. 
 

You won't see me pumping Eli's tires, it was more of a shot at people who think he's a HoFer. But the Hasselbeck argument isn't good either.

Tiki's year was ridiculous, and if the award went to him I'd understand it. But I also am not gonna get upset they the voters looked at Alexander's season and voted for him. Like, I get it.

[FalconFan13]

7 hours ago, sdrawkcab321 said:

2016 Matt Ryan should have gone to brees

In what way shape or form should it have went to brees?   They were pretty much the same in completion %, Ryan had more passing TD's, less than half the int's, a higher YPA by almost 2 yards, and a 16 point higher QB Rating  The only thing Brees has on Ryan that year was around 250 yards passing but it took him almost another 150 attempts to get that.

[DannyB]

41 minutes ago, FalconFan13 said:

In what way shape or form should it have went to brees?   They were pretty much the same in completion %, Ryan had more passing TD's, less than half the int's, a higher YPA by almost 2 yards, and a 16 point higher QB Rating  The only thing Brees has on Ryan that year was around 250 yards passing but it took him almost another 150 attempts to get that.

Yeah there's really no argument for Brees over Ryan. Saints had a losing record and didn't even make the playoffs. Ryan's YPA was MUCH better, TD% way better, etc etc.

[KingOfNewYork]

3 hours ago, DannyB said:

That one's tough, but there's an argument to be made. The completion percentage is probably the biggest thing that is holding me back, but it is really close.

A lot of people say if Wentz doesn’t get hurt he’s MVP and that bothers me. 

[DannyB]

41 minutes ago, KingOfTheDot said:

A lot of people say if Wentz doesn’t get hurt he’s MVP and that bothers me. 

Ah. I mean...yeah dude, I can understand your frustration. Here's a gif from the Dawson's Creek opening theme to help you feel better?...

[ET80]

11 hours ago, DannyB said:

First of all, Cleveland is one of the most fundamentally dysfunctional organizations on the entire planet

Tennessee went 3-13 in 2014, 2-14 is 2015. Jacksonville has perpetually been in that range since 2012, save for the 2011 season when they randomly went 10-6.

This isn't as rare as you think - it's part of the reason the Texans were able to "turn it around" so quickly, Tennessee and Jacksonville were a mess.

The Texans were heading in that direction, save for one person who kept them going in 2014.

EDIT: Strength of Schedule is the defining mark. Per Pro Football Reference, the Texans had a -2.33 SOS in 2014, and a 0.44 SOS in 2016. 

That's a significant, significant, SIGNIFICANT swing.

11 hours ago, DannyB said:

Ok we're a little in the weeds now, but Lamar Miller's '16 was NOT like Foster's '14. And I agree that '14 wasn't peak Foster. Lamar Miller's '16 was like a Xerox of Fosters, but like the 400th copy of it so the ink is mostly faded and you can just barely make it out.

That's fair, I didn't recall Miller's season being so standard - from a first person view, both Miller and Foster weren't exactly producing at a rate that made you think they were carrying the team. Comparatively speaking, both run team run games were average at best, nobody was losing games to Houston because of the run (save for Jacksonville and Tennessee).

Ultimately, my point is that these weren't team defining efforts - it was plug and play, not exactly a strength or weakness.

11 hours ago, DannyB said:

It's just to point out that, GENERALLY, the only wild swings of team records that you can traceable to players, are due to QBs.

We can cross that off the list, definitively. 

[TecmoSuperJoe]

Deleted

Edited May 10, 2020 by PapaShogun

[TecmoSuperJoe]

16 hours ago, Forge said:

Also, I don't care what excuses there are, there should never be a kicker who is NFL MVP. Sorry Mark Moseley. 

Yes. Fouts should have won it outright. 

[TecmoSuperJoe]

11 hours ago, JustAnotherFan said:

I strongly disagree on him not carrying that team. His OL was great, no doubt. But they had a weak defense (injuries) and he was the reason WHY Hasselback had a career year. 

I'm not going to get back into Tiki Barber again on here either.  

When Alexander broke down the following season, Hasselbeck was still a quality QB, and the reason the Seahawks made the playoffs in 2006. When Alexander was a corpse in 2007, Hasselbeck had his best season. Don't think it's fair to say Alexander carried the team to the Super Bowl. Hasselbeck as a passer was just as important, if not more so since he plays the more important position. 

 

Edited May 10, 2020 by PapaShogun

[Hunter2_1]

9 hours ago, ET80 said:

C'mon now, this was a team that went 2-14 the year before, with a new HC and Ryan Fitzpatrick, Case Keenum, Ryan Mallet and Tom Savage at QB. A seven game swing is incredible, given those circumstances - and that QB rotation is probably the worst QB rotation ever seen in a single season, teams that went 0-16 had better QB situations than the Texans that year. 

Furthermore, this isn't "the best player on the best team" award, this is "Most Valuable Player". The Texans are on the clock for Jameis Winston or Marcus Mariota if Watt doesn't have the season he had, this team had lost 14 straight heading into the 2014 season - they were bad, and the guy who was picked #1 (Clowney) played a combined three quarters that season, so it's not like there was much from that rookie class.

I'm not taking away from Rodgers, I would have been perfectly fine with a co-MVP nod, but we'll see another season like what Rodgers did. Heck, we'll see better seasons from QBs over the years, if we haven't already.

What we saw from Watt - 20 sacks, 29 TFLs, 16 PDs, an 80 yard pick six, 4 FFs, 5 FRs, a FR TD, 3 TD receptions - we're NEVER going to see someone do that again, on either side of the ball. Aaron Donald isn't going to do that, Myles Garrett isn't going to do that, TJ Watt isn't going to do that, the Bosa brothers won't do that, Chase Young won't do that...

It was literally a once in a lifetime season. You can't just ignore that because the Texans got nothing worthy of a playoff spot from the QB position. It ultimately tells me we'll never see a defensive player win MVP.

He was (and always should be regarded) THE most destructive force over a season (or two) the NFL has seen, IMHO. Lawrence was probably a better out-right pass rusher and more intimidating, but with Watt doing EVERYTHING from 3 or 4 different positions, affecting plays in every way possible from that position that year - It wasn't right...it was completely alien. He should have won an MVP for it, but there's only one award and the QB always will get advantage.