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Best "Robin" of All Time?


Robin  

22 members have voted

  1. 1. Best Robin?

    • Scottie Pippen
      9
    • Dwyane Wade
      1
    • Kobe Bryant
      9
    • Kevin McHale
      0
    • Kareem
      2
    • Other
      1


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14 hours ago, dtait93 said:

I mean LIS, they were close in 2001 during their run through the West but The Diesel was clearly the man come Finals time. I think we agree there.

As for 2002 the only series that was close was the 2002 WCF against SAC (besides the 2000 WCF against POR, but you already gave 2000 up) and Shaq was the one to close out the Kings in OT with 6 points. Kobe only had 2 points which he only scored because he was fouled with just a couple seconds left with the game out of reach anyways. Shaq also had 7 points to Kobe's 4 in the 4th quarter. And Kobe was overall very inefficient that series. Wilt Chamberneezy was clearly better that playoff run.

2000 and 2002 Shaq>Kobe. 2001 Shaq>=Kobe

I will give Kobe credit for his performances against the Spurs both years though. He outperformed Shaq whenever they went up against them.

You read what I said wrong. I'm saying Kobe was the one often times with the ball in his hands in the clutch for the Lakers, not that he was the one who closed out Sacramento in game 7. Just in the 2002 playoffs, it was Kobe who closed out the game vs the Nets in games 3 and 4. It was Kobe in game 4 against the Spurs that had the game winner and scored the last 8 points of the game. It was Kobe in game 5 leading the charge in the last few minutes of the game making the big shots and helping close out the Spurs. When the guy is the main guy end of games that is doing all this while averaging 28/5/5 in the two postseason runs, that is not a robin to me. That is a flat out top 3-5 player in the game that was just as valuable as Shaq in a lot of those series. A big man like Shaq because of the bulk rebounds and efficiency will always seem to be playing better than the perimeter player, but you have to look further than that. Take AD and LeBron for example. Go put up their stats against one another and you would think AD has been the more valuable player and the best player on the team. But that isn't the case. LeBron still makes more of an impact than him and has a much higher +/- than him. Not saying that is the end all be all stat, but that matches the eye test as well. Kobe in 2001 was a +211 while Shaq was a +187. Doesn't mean Kobe was necessarily better that postseason run but shows the type of impact he had and his value. And the OP had this from 96-04, but Kobe in his first few years was nothing but a role player. But he really became a star in 2000 and superstar the following year. Heck, in the 2003 playoffs he averaged 32/5/5. Just because Shaq may have been better, doesn't mean Kobe then automatically becomes a robin. That designation should be for when there is a clear drop off between the best and second best player on the team....That was not the case here. You just had two of the most dominant and overall top 3-5 players in the game on the same team. Similar to 2011 with LeBron and wade and the example I've been using often in this thread in KD and Steph. 

But you can disagree and consider Kobe a robin, that is fine...In that case then this poll is probably not even needed. 

Edited by J-ALL-DAY
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I was just using the loose definition of Robin,: 2nd best player, played a backseat role at times (whether in terms of the gameplan, or specifically in clutch situations) to another player on the team. Makes it more interesting, as you can ask did Scottie help MJ and the Bulls win more than Kobe helped Shaq and the Lakers wins? If we limit robin to more traditional definition, it's obviously Scottie... His only competition is who, McHale? Stockton?

 

You can say Kobe and Shaq were 2 "alphas" but at the end of the day that offense revolved around Shaq, and Shaq was the one who in turn was averaging 35+ in their final runs, so I think there's a clear distinction between best and 2nd best there, most important and 2nd most important. Same goes for Lebron and Wade by their 2nd year, Wade clearly took a backseat and let Lebron run the show. Showtime Lakers gradually turned the keys over to Magic, Kareem was the guy for half court sets but Magic was running the show, and it reflected in their numbers, by late 80s Kareem is not even making 1st team all-NBAs while Magic is winning MVPs, and as I alluded to, they are winning with a system specifically tailored to Magic's skill set (which frankly was a very poor fit for Kareem, hence why they'd make sure to get him his touches if it didn't happen organically through killed fastbreaks). Maybe "robin" is too harsh, perhaps less confusion if you ask yourself the question: who played the best basketball as the 2nd most important player on the team and how well did they compliment their teams' most important player?

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On 5/16/2020 at 4:13 PM, amac said:

I don't really consider Kobe or Kareem as Robin's. So I feel like the conversation is who is #2 after Pippen. Maybe Havlicek or Wade (Lebron era)?

I agree. Scottie has always been Robin, minus his brief Nightwing run when MJ retired. It's Scottie.

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8 hours ago, RandyMossIsBoss said:

I was just using the loose definition of Robin,: 2nd best player, played a backseat role at times (whether in terms of the gameplan, or specifically in clutch situations) to another player on the team. Makes it more interesting, as you can ask did Scottie help MJ and the Bulls win more than Kobe helped Shaq and the Lakers wins? If we limit robin to more traditional definition, it's obviously Scottie... His only competition is who, McHale? Stockton?

You can say Kobe and Shaq were 2 "alphas" but at the end of the day that offense revolved around Shaq, and Shaq was the one who in turn was averaging 35+ in their final runs, so I think there's a clear distinction between best and 2nd best there, most important and 2nd most important. Same goes for Lebron and Wade by their 2nd year, Wade clearly took a backseat and let Lebron run the show. Showtime Lakers gradually turned the keys over to Magic, Kareem was the guy for half court sets but Magic was running the show, and it reflected in their numbers, by late 80s Kareem is not even making 1st team all-NBAs while Magic is winning MVPs, and as I alluded to, they are winning with a system specifically tailored to Magic's skill set (which frankly was a very poor fit for Kareem, hence why they'd make sure to get him his touches if it didn't happen organically through killed fastbreaks). Maybe "robin" is too harsh, perhaps less confusion if you ask yourself the question: who played the best basketball as the 2nd most important player on the team and how well did they compliment their teams' most important player?

Then it is Kobe, the guy who was the actual closer on the team while averaging what he did. 

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