Bill Belichick is the GOAT of our generation but who is 2nd best coach of our generation?

[DoleINGout]

3 hours ago, Starless said:

ah yes, Jake Fromm, the AJ McCarron of Matt Barkleys. 

Youll see... YOULL ALL SEE, PEASANTS!

[Soko]

6 hours ago, Spartacus said:

McCarthy not being on the list is a mistake IMO but I would go Reid. 

You think McCarthy is in talks to be the best HC in the league, not named Belichick?

[JAF-N72EX]

8 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

You think McCarthy is in talks to be the best HC in the league, not named Belichick?

Dammit Yang. Please don't force me to have to stick up for the Packers twice in one night. I read this thread early but I was hoping no one else would object because I actually agree with him.

McCarthy absolutely belongs on this list. Not saying he IS the best among them but he certainly does belong. 

[Soko]

2 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said:

Dammit Yang. Please don't force me to have to stick up for the Packers twice in one night. I read this thread early but I was hoping no one else would object because I actually agree with him.

McCarthy absolutely belongs on this list. Not saying he IS the best among them but he certainly does belong. 

I’m going to make you do it. 

Yes or No: McCarthy is or is in talks to be the best HC in the league, not named Belichick?

[JAF-N72EX]

Just now, Yin-Yang said:

I’m going to make you do it. 

Yes or No: McCarthy is or is in talks to be the best HC in the league, not named Belichick?

Yes. Again, I'm not saying is the best (I would have to give that more thought) but he does belong. 

[Soko]

2 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said:

Yes. Again, I'm not saying is the best (I would have to give that more thought) but he does belong. 

Shrug.

I don’t think he’s anywhere near 2nd best in the league. I think if you wanted to include him in that group of coaches, he’d definitely be at the bottom and would only be included because he’s been coaching in the league for around the same amount of time as them. What makes you think he’s better than any of the rest?

[indifference]

Reid. He’s been a quality coach for a whole two decades now. The ability to adapt the way the game has changed makes him second. Payton and Tomlin are right there with him but Andy has just done it longer. Entering decade 3, Reid will continue to run it up and add to his resume. That longevity is just impressive.

[JAF-N72EX]

6 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

Shrug.

I don’t think he’s anywhere near 2nd best in the league. I think if you wanted to include him in that group of coaches, he’d definitely be at the bottom and would only be included because he’s been coaching in the league for around the same amount of time as them. What makes you think he’s better than any of the rest?

He has only had 3 seasons in 12 or 14 years where his teams have been below .500 and I imagine atleast 6 divsion titles. Beat the Steelers in the SB.  He is a offensive coach and they have for the most part always been one the best in the league, year in year out. EDIT: Keep in mind, the NFC North have had some VERY tough defenses over the years between the Vikings and Bears.

Disclaimer, it's too late to fact check all of this so this just a wild guess based on what I have seen so correct me if I'm wrong. 

Edited May 18, 2020 by JustAnotherFan

[JAF-N72EX]

McCarthy had his flaws for sure but good HC's that are consistent are VERY hard to find. 

[Soko]

5 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said:

He has only had 3 seasons in 12 or 14 years where his teams have been below .500 and I imagine atleast 6 divsion titles. Beat the Steelers in the SB.  He is a offensive coach and they have for the most part always been one the best in the league, year in year out. EDIT: Keep in mind, the NFC North have had some VERY tough defenses over the years between the Vikings and Bears.

Disclaimer, it's too late to fact check all of this so this just a wild guess based on what I have seen so correct me if I'm wrong. 

3 seasons under .500, but 5/13 with no more than 8 wins. Meh. 

10-8 in the playoffs, not shabby, but not anything to write home about. McCarthy has a SB win to his name but so do the other coaches, and the rest (except for Payton and Harbaugh) at least have multiple appearances. 

1 minute ago, JustAnotherFan said:

McCarthy had his flaws for sure but good HC's that are consistent are VERY hard to find. 

Hard to come by, absolutely. Consistency doesn’t put you in contention for 2nd in the league though. 

[JAF-N72EX]

18 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

3 seasons under .500, but 5/13 with no more than 8 wins. Meh. 

10-8 in the playoffs, not shabby, but not anything to write home about. McCarthy has a SB win to his name but so do the other coaches, and the rest (except for Payton and Harbaugh) at least have multiple appearances. 

Hard to come by, absolutely. Consistency doesn’t put you in contention for 2nd in the league though. 

You're vastly underrating how hard it is to win this league. How many other coaches on this list match Mcarthy's resume? 

You are also not taking into consideration that it was not McCarthy's fault that his former boss/GM could not build a defense around his good offense as a HC/OC.

When he won the SB they had a very good defense to match the offense and that defense was taken apart when Nick Collins(who was on his way to a HOF career) suffered a injury. You can't put these things on a HC.

I know you, being a Pats fan, are accustomed  to having your HC also be your GM so you may not be aware, but with most teams, alot of times the HC does not have the final say in all of the moves and they have very little influence in the negotiation process.

Again, I fault McCarthy for his play calling and the DC's that he has chosen over the years (albeit Capers was the right choice at the time...it just didn't work) but these are the same things that could be said for just about any other HC in the league and I bet the majority of them did not half of the resume that he had. 

Think about this. How would you view Reid if he didn't win his first Superbowl this year?  He has his flaws, but he is one of the best coaches in the league, hands down, regardless if wins the SB or not because he helps provide stability and has a track record of winning.  

[Soko]

4 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said:

You're vastly underrating how hard it is to win this league. How many other coaches on this list match Mcarthy's resume? 

Word for word - not many. Overall? I think most of these coaches do, or have one better.

4 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said:

You are also not taking into consideration that it was not McCarthy's fault that his former boss/GM could not build a defense around his good offense as a HC/OC.

I mean, does Tomlin get an excuse also for having a GM (like TT) that refused to delve into FA? Does Harbaugh have an excuse for never having a QB to the caliber of Brees, Ben, Rodgers, or Wilson? Does Payton get an excuse for having some of the worst defenses of all time? You can make considerations for all of these coaches that are out of their control. 

4 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said:

When he won the SB they had a very good defense to match the offense and that defense was taken apart when Nick Collins(who was on his way to a HOF career) suffered a injury. You can't put these things on a HC.

I mean, I can and I can’t. It’s not anyone’s fault Collins got injured and the quality of players dropped, but he still has to go out there and try to win games/championships. Which McCarthy still did fairly successfully, just not to the extent of the others.

4 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said:

I know you, being a Pats fan, are accustomed  to having your HC also be your GM so you may not be aware, but with most teams, alot of times the HC does not have the final say in all of the moves and they have very little influence in the negotiation process.

Again, I fault McCarthy for his play calling and the DC's that he has chosen over the years (albeit Capers was the right choice at the time...it just didn't work) but these are the same things that could be said for just about any other HC in the league and I bet the majority of them did not half of the resume that he had. 

I think there’s some confusion - the thread is for 2nd best in the league. I’m not calling McCarthy trash. I’m calling him not in contention for 2nd best. The rest of the league’s coaches (outside of those ITT) are irrelevant.

4 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said:

Think about this. How would you view Reid if he didn't win his first Superbowl this year?  He has his flaws, but he is one of the best coaches in the league, hands down, regardless if wins the SB or not because he helps provide stability and has a track record of winning.  

Yes, he is. Reid also brought multiple teams to relevance, with more than one QB (most weren’t HOF caliber and some were actually just bad), went to multiple SBs, is generally viewed as the best offensive mind in the league (especially if you take how long he’s done it for into account), and has shown an ability to be great with a wide range of players. Really none of that can be said for McCarthy.

[JAF-N72EX]

19 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

42 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said:

You're vastly underrating how hard it is to win this league. How many other coaches on this list match Mcarthy's resume? 

Word for word - not many. Overall? I think most of these coaches do, or have one better.

Name them? I'll wait. Without even looking I know it;s few far and between because I understand how hard it is to find a GM like McCarthy and even more so how hard it is to win in this league. 

While you're at it. What makes you think that he doesn't belong on this list? 

19 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

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You are also not taking into consideration that it was not McCarthy's fault that his former boss/GM could not build a defense around his good offense as a HC/OC.

I mean, does Tomlin get an excuse also for having a GM (like TT) that refused to delve into FA? Does Harbaugh have an excuse for never having a QB to the caliber of Brees, Ben, Rodgers, or Wilson? Does Payton get an excuse for having some of the worst defenses of all time? You can make considerations for all of these coaches that are out of their control. 

We are talking about McCarthy here. Not any of them. None of this refutes my original point. 

19 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

I mean, I can and I can’t. It’s not anyone’s fault Collins got injured and the quality of players dropped, but he still has to go out there and try to win games/championships. Which McCarthy still did fairly successfully, just not to the extent of the others.

He did go out there and win games. The extent of others meaning how many? 

19 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

I think there’s some confusion - the thread is for 2nd best in the league. I’m not calling McCarthy trash. I’m calling him not in contention for 2nd best. The rest of the league’s coaches (outside of those ITT) are irrelevant.

And I am asking you to compare his resume to those who are on this list of "2nd best" in the league. Whicj would further prove that he absolutley does belong in the discussion. 

19 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

Yes, he is. Reid also brought multiple teams to relevance, with more than one QB (most weren’t HOF caliber and some were actually just bad), went to multiple SBs, is generally viewed as the best offensive mind in the league (especially if you take how long he’s done it for into account), and has shown an ability to be great with a wide range of players. Really none of that can be said for McCarthy.

You missed my point on bring up Reid. I only brought that up because you mentioned SB wins. The point I was making was that Reid wouldn't even be considered by your standards if he didn't just win his first SB even though he deserved to be.

Edited May 18, 2020 by JustAnotherFan

[Soko]

11 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said:

Name them? I'll wait. Without even looking I know it;s few far and between because I understand how hard it is to find a GM like McCarthy and even more so how hard it is to win in this league. 

Let me rub my two brain cells together for a moment, standby:

Mike Tomlin, Pete Carroll, Sean Payton, John Harbaugh, Andy Reid.

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While you're at it. What makes you think that he doesn't belong on this list? 

Because he’s not the 2nd best coach in the league, unarguably. 

Quote

We are talking about McCarthy here. Not any of them. None of this refutes my original point. 

Lmao, we are talking about Mike McCarthy as the 2nd best coach. So his competitors absolutely belong in this discussion. If your argument is that McCarthy is the second best HC in the league, but no one else is allowed to be talked about - welp, you got me. 

Quote

He did go out there and win games. The extent of others meaning how many? 

You’re stressing me now - *rub those cells together again*

Tomlin, Reid, Harbaugh, Payton, Carroll...5! That makes 5, if my maths is correct.

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And I am asking you to compare his resume to those who are on this list of "2nd best" in the league. Whicj would further prove that he absolutley does belong in the discussion. 

You literally brought up “half the HCs in the league” though? 

Quote

You missed my point on bring up Reid. I only brought that up because you mentioned SB wins. The point I was making was that Reid wouldn't even be considered by your standards if he didn't just win his first SB even though he deserved to be.

What exactly is the point in bringing up what the discussion would be in an alternate universe where different realities occur?  Yeah, championships matter on a coach’s resume. Is this an outlandish, out-of-bounds opinion?

If you happened to assume that I brought up SB *appearances* as the only thing that matters, well that’s why I said the rest on Reid, to clear that confusion. 

[DannyB]

1 hour ago, Yin-Yang said:

Shrug.

I don’t think he’s anywhere near 2nd best in the league. I think if you wanted to include him in that group of coaches, he’d definitely be at the bottom and would only be included because he’s been coaching in the league for around the same amount of time as them. What makes you think he’s better than any of the rest?

I think one reason some might not include MM in this convo is because he was fired. Personally, I think he deserved to get fired; in fact, I would have fired him sooner. However, he was fired amidst a rough patch that is fairly similar to ones that both Harbaugh and Tomlin have gone through as well. Meaning, if the threshold for being fired was somehow standardized across the league, they would have been fired too. The Packers made the 2016 conference championship game and lost. They went under .500 and missed the playoffs the next season, and were in the midst of another season of below .500 ball and missing the postseason (technically he COULD have finished above .500).

Tomlin: After appearing in the SB, his next three seasons, in order: made playoffs as a wild card but lost in the WC game to Tim Tebow, .500 missed playoffs, .500 missed playoffs. Then the Steelers made the playoffs 4 straight years (with two one-and-dones). After the last one-and-done, they have now gone two seasons of missing the playoffs. If we're drawing a comp, he would have been fired during this past season.

Harbaugh: Following their SB win, the Ravens followed it up with only one playoff appearance (winning one game) in the span of 5 years. They've now made the playoffs two years in a row, but didn't win any playoff games. If we're drawing a comp., he would've been let go somewhere in that 5-season span. Probably the second season in a row of no playoffs, his SB win four years behind him.

Winning percentages of the three coaches .618, .642, .615

Playoff records of the three coaches: 10-8, 8-7, 10-7

Playoff appearances: 9, 8, 8

Years with at least one playoff win: 6, 4, 6

Another feather in MM's cap, he managed an unprecedented transition (in its level of vitriol and controversy) from one beloved starting QB to another, and attained a high level of success with both. Tomlin has only had Big Ben, and while Harbaugh finally escorted the corpse of Joe Flacco out the door, we have yet to see him reach that level with Jackson (I assume he will to some degree).

SO...I think it's totally fair to fully include McCarthy on this list. If I had my personal choice of three, for some reason I just kinda think I'd take Harbaugh for a head coach. But I'm just saying I think MM deserves to be right alongside these guys.