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Where would Tom Brady rank all time if he didn't win any Super Bowls


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1 minute ago, DannyB said:

Skill is literally a synonym of ability. It's part of the dictionary definition of "ability"

And the OP is obviously missing a few crayons in his box as it is. But even so, he lists Peyton first, so if he's just looking for somebody to throw the football over them mountains, he ain't it.

You can develop skills. Fix your footwork, improve your reads, all that. But Ryan Tannehill’s never going to throw the ropes that Mahomes does, that’s ability. 

1 minute ago, DannyB said:

I knew it. I KNEW IT.

I’ve been a fly on the wall here too long for you to blow my cover like this.

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13 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

What makes you think I’m underestimating Rodgers?

I just feel like you are getting so caught up on how strong Vick's arm was that it may be clouding your judgement of other QB's such as Rodgers. Plus, it seems people always talk about Rodgers' great accuracy, footwork, manipulating the defense...all of those things he does but very rarely do I hear about how strong of an arm he has and you come off as one of those people. I feel like his arm strenght has been underrated. 

And mind you, this is all coming from a Bears fan.

Edited by JustAnotherFan
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2 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

You can develop skills. Fix your footwork, improve your reads, all that. But Ryan Tannehill’s never going to throw the ropes that Mahomes does, that’s ability.

I feel like this gets into a deeper conversation, and also might just come down to semantics. But, I would say they both can be improved. I think there is some elasticity to skills/abilities, but also an ultimate ceiling. Tannehill may never throw as far as Mahomes, but I bet there have been certain routines, workouts, practices, etc, that he's done so that he's able to throw as far as he does, vs. if he HADN'T done those things.

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6 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said:

I just feel like you are getting so caught up on how strong Vick's arm was that it may be clouding your judgement of other QB's such as Rodgers. Plus, it seems people always talk about Rodgers' great accuracy, footwork, manipulating the defense...all of those things he does but very rarely do I hear about how strong of an arm he has and you come off as one of those people. 

And mind you, this is all coming from a Bears fan.

Similar to Brady actually, in that he does so many other things with more regularity, that Brady doesn't pop to mind when people talk about strong arms. He doesn't deploy it much, and has certainly faded a bit in the past year or two, but at his peak he could throw it 70+ yards too.

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4 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said:

I just feel like you are getting so caught up on how strong Vick's arm was that it may be clouding your judgement of other QB's such as Rodgers. Plus, it seems people always talk about Rodgers' great accuracy, footwork, manipulating the defense...all of those things he does but very rarely do I hear about how strong of an arm he has and you come off as one of those people. 

And mind you, this is all coming from a Bears fan.

 Nah, I’m not one of those people. I think Tom was better at placing the ball than Peyton, that doesn’t mean I think Peyton didn’t know how to drop a penny in a bucket. I think a guy can “lose” a comparison (for lack of better phrasing) without disrespecting or underestimating their ability. 

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8 minutes ago, Classic said:

The lack of Brady respect is getting out of hand. Where would he rank if he didn't win any super bowls? That's bizarre question as it would require imagining Brady not playing well in the post-season which is his M.O.

I mean, we're still talking about a guy who's 2nd all-time (and could finish first if Brees retires before him) in passing TD, yards and completions, has won 3 MVP awards and held the single-season TD record at one point, was the first guy ever to win MVP unanimously, is top-5 in career passer rating despite having played his first few seasons before the rules were relaxed, etc., etc. 
If Marino could be considered top-10 without winning any Super Bowls, I don't see the argument against Brady also being up there. 

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1 minute ago, Yin-Yang said:

 Nah, I’m not one of those people. I think Tom was better at placing the ball than Peyton, that doesn’t mean I think Peyton didn’t know how to drop a penny in a bucket. I think a guy can “lose” a comparison (for lack of better phrasing) without disrespecting or underestimating their ability. 

Fair enough. Then would you agree that the gap between Rodgers and Vick's arm strength are at least close in comparison? 

I'm only asking because it's starting to feel like we may be splitting hairs at this here lol. I personally think his arm strength is at least pretty damn close to Vick but you think otherwise.

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2 minutes ago, DannyB said:

I feel like this gets into a deeper conversation, and also might just come down to semantics. But, I would say they both can be improved. I think there is some elasticity to skills/abilities, but also an ultimate ceiling. Tannehill may never throw as far as Mahomes, but I bet there have been certain routines, workouts, practices, etc, that he's done so that he's able to throw as far as he does, vs. if he HADN'T done those things.

For sure. Earth-1 Ryan Tannehill runs as fast as he does and throws as far/hard as he can, while Earth-2 Tannehill loves chocolates, ate himself out of the league, and couldn’t run 10 yards without heaving over. Ability can fluctuate too, but I’d say is much more capped/limited than things like footwork or accuracy. But you’re right - semantics.

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10 minutes ago, DannyB said:

Similar to Brady actually, in that he does so many other things with more regularity, that Brady doesn't pop to mind when people talk about strong arms. He doesn't deploy it much, and has certainly faded a bit in the past year or two, but at his peak he could throw it 70+ yards too.

Agree. The same with all of the other widely considered top QB's of all time. They are the greatest because they do damn near everything at the highest level. There are just traits that stick out more than others.  

Edited by JustAnotherFan
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2 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said:

Fair enough. Then would you agree that the gap between Rodgers and Vick's arm strength are at least close in comparison? 

I'm only asking because it's starting to feel like we may be splitting hairs at this here lol. I personally think his arm strength is at least pretty damn close to Vick but you think otherwise.

People on this forum often get a little frazzled with the “Vick, easily” or comments like that (not you, just in general). So I put it like this: which number is bigger, 9 or 10? 10, easily. Decisively, definitely, whatever words you want to use. 10>9, but that doesn’t mean it’s not close. 

So yeah, I’d say they’re comparable. Rodgers definitely murders him in any category regarding accuracy, touch, placement, or throwing off-platform. But distance/throwing a rope? I think it’s Vick, with no disrespect to Rodgers.

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2 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

So yeah, I’d say they’re comparable. Rodgers definitely murders him in any category regarding accuracy, touch, placement, or throwing off-platform. But distance/throwing a rope? I think it’s Vick, with no disrespect to Rodgers.

But where have you SEEN that? Show me a throw that Vick has made that would make people be like...okay, Rodgers can't throw the ball that far.

This might be the furthest Rodgers throw I can think of/find. Feet aren't set, on the move to his left, flings it outside of his body. Lets it go at about the 28, it lands a yard or two into the endzone. I wish I knew how to embed the video, but here's the link.

https://[LINK ERROR]/om8k#

The furthest Vick throw I can find is his 88 yard TD pass to Jackson, Eagles vs. Washington. Nice, comfortable pocket, set feet, nice wind-up. From about the 8 yard line, caught at about Washington's 35 yard line, may have landed at the 34 or 33 without the catch

 

Man I wish I could find a video of the Rodgers throw to embed. It's ridiculous.

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7 hours ago, JustAnotherFan said:

I don't know man. As far as arm strength. No doubt Vick had a cannon but your underestimating Rodgers.  I watched this man throw a 60 yard ball(? I think) downfield at such a high angle that it looked like it was going to hit the lights at the top of the stadium. That's not easy to do. 

I've seen Vick legit throw a 60 yd laser, with a flick of the wrist. There is no comparison between the two IMO when it comes to overall "arm strength".

Vicks closer to Farve, then Rodgers is to Vick.

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3 hours ago, DannyB said:

The furthest Vick throw I can find is his 88 yard TD pass to Jackson, Eagles vs. Washington. Nice, comfortable pocket, set feet, nice wind-up. From about the 8 yard line, caught at about Washington's 35 yard line, may have landed at the 34 or 33 without the catch

He threw that ball from the 4 yd line, not the 8 and it was caught at the 34 , where he reached out to make the catch.

70 air yds on a 1 step crow hop.

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