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Matt Ryan vs Big Ben


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7 hours ago, DutchFalcon said:

Ryan has won games with some horrid, horrid teams and won games he had nor his team had any business in winning. People salivate at his weapons but don't forget he had a season where he had Harry Douglas as his #1 WR and made him a 1k receiver.

 

That's adorable. The consensus is that Ryan has generally had one of the most talented teams in the league and when devoid of talent (usually due to injuries more than anything) he cannot win. Also, with your Harry Douglas argument I like that part where you ignored that Roddy White was still on that team coming off an 1,000 yard season and missed 3 games and Julio Jones was set to shatter records for the first 5 games of the season. But I'm sure you wouldn't try to manipulate perspective.

7 hours ago, DutchFalcon said:

Sure, he plays in a Dome but usually behind an terrible Oline. While Ben has had a very good/elite Oline for most of his career.

That's funny... You act like Ben Roethlisberger didn't win a Super Bowl in 2008 with an offensive line worse than anything Ryan has ever had. Hell, let's look at Offensive Line Efficiency Rankings over the years... Pitt is left, Atlanta is right.

2008: 28/5

2009: 28/6

2010: 29/3

2011: 20/7

2012: 15/8

2013: 15/7

2014: 14/11

2015: 8/9

2016: 4/23

2017: 1/8

2018: 4/14

2019:  12/13

Ryan has objectlvely been behind a good line all but one year of his career. Ben has been behind some terrible offensive lines earlier in the middle of his career yet went to two Super Bowls and won one. Other than that, he's had good to average ones other than a four year run from 2015-2018.

7 hours ago, DutchFalcon said:

Big Ben hasn't scared me since 2010ish. Guy is pretty much always hampered by injuries that he decides to play through to show his thoughness while it hampers his effectiveness greatly.

And yet, one of the two is barely above .500 (35-29) since 2016 and the other is winning at almost 3x the rate that they're losing at 33-12 since 2016. But surely, Matt Ryan scares you more than Ben.

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21 hours ago, AntonChigurh said:

Ryan, although Ben has the better career due to organization. 

Yup. Being a Steeler made Ben make those throws in 2008. Whereas being a Falcon made Ryan not throw the ball to allow a 28-3 comeback.

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7 hours ago, BlaqOptic said:

Yup. Being a Steeler made Ben make those throws in 2008. Whereas being a Falcon made Ryan not throw the ball to allow a 28-3 comeback.

Switch Qbs, Ben would never have taken the Falcons to the big dance and Matt Ryan would have won 3 superbowls with the steelers

 

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37 minutes ago, AntonChigurh said:

Switch Qbs, Ben would never have taken the Falcons to the big dance and Matt Ryan would have won 3 superbowls with the steelers

This is nonsense. As a Ravens fan and a natural “rival” with Flacco I’ve watched both Big Ben and Matt Ryan quite a bit.

Big Ben has indeed benefited from being a part of a stable organization as most any player would, but let’s not act like Atlanta has not had stability there. Thomas Dimitroff has been with the Falcons for Ryan’s entire tenure and Ryan has had some long tenured HCs as well. He’s been provided a wealth of offensive talent.

Ryan had by far the best season of his career under Kyle Shanahan’a tutelage, but even then melted down in the biggest game of his career.

Ryan has better passing stats in his career, but Ben is the more dominant player. There’s a reason Ed Reed, one of the best safeties of all time, listed 4 QBs as the best he faced; Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Phillip Rivers, and Ben Roethlisburger. Big Ben was the ultimate at keeping plays alive and burying teams even when they’ve played elite defense. He scares elite players because they know even if they guess it right and play tremendous defense, he can still beat you. Matt Ryan has never had the same mystique. Current NFL players vote Big Ben as superior as well. There isn’t much ground for Ryan to stand on (in this argument) outside of his empty calories.

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On 5/25/2020 at 7:52 PM, BlaqOptic said:

That's adorable. The consensus is that Ryan has generally had one of the most talented teams in the league and when devoid of talent (usually due to injuries more than anything) he cannot win. Also, with your Harry Douglas argument I like that part where you ignored that Roddy White was still on that team coming off an 1,000 yard season and missed 3 games and Julio Jones was set to shatter records for the first 5 games of the season. But I'm sure you wouldn't try to manipulate perspective.

That's funny... You act like Ben Roethlisberger didn't win a Super Bowl in 2008 with an offensive line worse than anything Ryan has ever had. Hell, let's look at Offensive Line Efficiency Rankings over the years... Pitt is left, Atlanta is right.

2008: 28/5

2009: 28/6

2010: 29/3

2011: 20/7

2012: 15/8

2013: 15/7

2014: 14/11

2015: 8/9

2016: 4/23

2017: 1/8

2018: 4/14

2019:  12/13

Ryan has objectlvely been behind a good line all but one year of his career. Ben has been behind some terrible offensive lines earlier in the middle of his career yet went to two Super Bowls and won one. Other than that, he's had good to average ones other than a four year run from 2015-2018.

And yet, one of the two is barely above .500 (35-29) since 2016 and the other is winning at almost 3x the rate that they're losing at 33-12 since 2016. But surely, Matt Ryan scares you more than Ben.

I'm really, really curious where you found those efficiency rankings. Because they feel really off.

Ryan has had a good line in the 2008 - 2010 period, when Dahl left it went to mediocre/kinda good till 2013 when it turned to crap. It wasn't until 2015 - 2016 that the line improved somewhat. I straight up refuse to believe that a line of Sam "The sackmaker" Baker (on IR)/Lamar Holmes (LOL), Justin Blalock (He was good), Peter Konz (soft as hell), Harland Gunn/Gerrett Reynolds (LOL x2), Ryan Schreader (Rookie, can't remember if he started.. probably not)/Jeremy Trueblood would be the 7th Oline in the NFL in any relevant positive statistic.

Same goes for the 2015 Oline. Played a center for half a season (Mike Person) who couldn't even properly snap the ball.

Also no idea how the 2016 Oline is ranked 23rd. This was probably the best lineup Ryan has played behind since 2010 and was ranked 4th by PFF.

Talking about scary; Matt Ryan has 30 4th quarter comebacks to his name, one less then Ben. This is despite playing 4 less seasons. So yes, Ryan scares me more.

 

 

 

 

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Falcons fans always overstate how bad their offensive line has been at times. The only real consistently negative thing Ryan has had to deal with offensively is rarely having a great running game. Outside of that the only other QB in the last 20 years that has had more favorable offensive conditions is Peyton Manning. Despite that he's only had 1 season far and away better than Ben.

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On 5/25/2020 at 10:49 PM, diamondbull424 said:

This is nonsense. As a Ravens fan and a natural “rival” with Flacco I’ve watched both Big Ben and Matt Ryan quite a bit.

Big Ben has indeed benefited from being a part of a stable organization as most any player would, but let’s not act like Atlanta has not had stability there. Thomas Dimitroff has been with the Falcons for Ryan’s entire tenure and Ryan has had some long tenured HCs as well. He’s been provided a wealth of offensive talent.

Ryan had by far the best season of his career under Kyle Shanahan’a tutelage, but even then melted down in the biggest game of his career.

Ryan has better passing stats in his career, but Ben is the more dominant player. There’s a reason Ed Reed, one of the best safeties of all time, listed 4 QBs as the best he faced; Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Phillip Rivers, and Ben Roethlisburger. Big Ben was the ultimate at keeping plays alive and burying teams even when they’ve played elite defense. He scares elite players because they know even if they guess it right and play tremendous defense, he can still beat you. Matt Ryan has never had the same mystique. Current NFL players vote Big Ben as superior as well. There isn’t much ground for Ryan to stand on (in this argument) outside of his empty calories.

Thats complete BS as Ryan did not melt in that game he literally holds one of the highest QB Rating in any superbowl ever.  The guy only missed 5 throws the entire game with a 144 rating.  Hell even after Mack got man handled during a block allowing a sack right up the middle he threw to sanu putting us back in FG range which Matthews literally chocked someone out while holding them during that play.  So instead of running the ball 3 times and putting us up 2 scores with a FG under 2 minutes or so left.   Shanny decides to throw the ball 3 times which ryan actually does succeed in during 2 god awful plays by Mack and Matthews on back to back plays.  Thus bringing it back to 3rd and 33 because of our O-line crapping the bed in the biggest moments. None of this would have even be needed nor possible if we run the ball 3 times and kick a FG inside the 20 killing the clock while doing so. 

The 3 biggest culprits to me in that loss are Shanny #1,  O-line #2, and Freeman #3  Ryan and julio did amazing in that game and did what they needed to do to put us in the spot to win it.

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On 5/27/2020 at 9:17 AM, Malik said:

Falcons fans always overstate how bad their offensive line has been at times. The only real consistently negative thing Ryan has had to deal with offensively is rarely having a great running game. Outside of that the only other QB in the last 20 years that has had more favorable offensive conditions is Peyton Manning. Despite that he's only had 1 season far and away better than Ben.

Can't say i agree with that as we have had some pretty god awful ones over the years that many of other fans have blasted us on along with us lol.  We have had 1 or 2 solid ones and 1 really good one. But the majority have been pretty bad and the defenses while Ryan have been here have been DREADFUL.   I've said it before and i'll say it again i would trade Ryans group of players for brady's group of players every single time.  Give me that O-line and defense and you can have Julio and the rest of them all day long.  Ryan is more than skilled enough to make avg players at WR, TE, and RB look much better than they really are when you give him the time to with a top tier o-line.   Ryans greatest strengths are his intelligence and his pin point accuracy on plays where he is throwing someone open to a spot.   A top tier O-line just strengthens his greatest skills and what he does best.

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17 hours ago, FalconFan13 said:

Thats complete BS as Ryan did not melt in that game he literally holds one of the highest QB Rating in any superbowl ever.  The guy only missed 5 throws the entire game with a 144 rating.  Hell even after Mack got man handled during a block allowing a sack right up the middle he threw to sanu putting us back in FG range which Matthews literally chocked someone out while holding them during that play.  So instead of running the ball 3 times and putting us up 2 scores with a FG under 2 minutes or so left.   Shanny decides to throw the ball 3 times which ryan actually does succeed in during 2 god awful plays by Mack and Matthews on back to back plays.  Thus bringing it back to 3rd and 33 because of our O-line crapping the bed in the biggest moments. None of this would have even be needed nor possible if we run the ball 3 times and kick a FG inside the 20 killing the clock while doing so. 

The 3 biggest culprits to me in that loss are Shanny #1,  O-line #2, and Freeman #3  Ryan and julio did amazing in that game and did what they needed to do to put us in the spot to win it.

No one said he didn’t have a good game. But not putting together a scoring drive in the 4th and then fumbling away another drive (good thing lost fumbles don’t count as interceptions), all when the pressure started mounting. Also if stats were all that matter; Freeman also had a great game too. I agree with Julio dominating that game... it was clear that when he was being fed he couldn’t be stopped, but then they stopped going his way as much.

Julio is the only person I’m not liable to give blame too. Everyone else is culpable. QB has too much power on the field to not be culpable after being on the opposite side of such a historic comeback. And before you say “Freeman let go of the block on Hightower that got Ryan plowed” that’s an excuse too.

New England overloaded that side of the line and were showing blitz... and they did blitz.

There’s no blame on the OL and RB there for that fumble; as a QB with that many guys at the LOS you’ve got to know to get the ball out quickly and/or protect the football if you can’t.

If Ryan simply throws the ball into the ground, they punt and pin NE deep into their side of the field, forcing them to use more time on the comeback... and likely falling short in the end.

Yet Ryan is just chilling back there trying to play hero ball, as if NE only sent 3 defenders. He only has one WR running a short route in Mohammad Sanu, which isn’t a problem, because the defender looked to be expecting a slant so Sanu had perfect leverage for that out route he ran... only Ryan is looking to target the deep play there... again as if he doesn’t have NE blitzing.

With that look, he quite easily should have targeted Sanu for the out route (or with 20 seconds on the clock when NE showed that look, IDK, audibled into another play.)

So yeah... Ryan melted down. When the game was in question, his decision making was quite bad. When Julio was mossing dudes, it made things look a whole lot easier for him.

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On 5/27/2020 at 7:23 AM, DutchFalcon said:

I'm really, really curious where you found those efficiency rankings. Because they feel really off.

Ryan has had a good line in the 2008 - 2010 period, when Dahl left it went to mediocre/kinda good till 2013 when it turned to crap. It wasn't until 2015 - 2016 that the line improved somewhat. I straight up refuse to believe that a line of Sam "The sackmaker" Baker (on IR)/Lamar Holmes (LOL), Justin Blalock (He was good), Peter Konz (soft as hell), Harland Gunn/Gerrett Reynolds (LOL x2), Ryan Schreader (Rookie, can't remember if he started.. probably not)/Jeremy Trueblood would be the 7th Oline in the NFL in any relevant positive statistic.

Same goes for the 2015 Oline. Played a center for half a season (Mike Person) who couldn't even properly snap the ball.

Also no idea how the 2016 Oline is ranked 23rd. This was probably the best lineup Ryan has played behind since 2010 and was ranked 4th by PFF.

Talking about scary; Matt Ryan has 30 4th quarter comebacks to his name, one less then Ben. This is despite playing 4 less seasons. So yes, Ryan scares me more.

 

 

 

 

Football Outsiders.

You're right. Ryan does have 1 less 4QC. He also has 1/4 of the amount of 4QC in the post-season which is what separates them. In the biggest moments of his career Ben stepped up. In the biggest moment of his career Ryan's coach knew he couldn't be trusted.

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2 hours ago, BlaqOptic said:

Football Outsiders.

You're right. Ryan does have 1 less 4QC. He also has 1/4 of the amount of 4QC in the post-season which is what separates them. In the biggest moments of his career Ben stepped up. In the biggest moment of his career Ryan's coach knew he couldn't be trusted.

To be fair to Shanahan... he did trust Ryan, with a 3rd and 1... he could’ve run it there... but he gave Ryan a chance to make something happen... and Ryan rewarded him by fumbling it away.

Reminds me of this play... only Flacco still had the “younger QB” excuse... and the Steelers timed the blitz perfectly. They didn’t show the look the whole way.

Flacco was blasted by most every fanbase on this forum for this play. No way peak Ryan has a similar overloaded blitz (from the non-blindside) that was shown pre-snap, only for him to fumble... and not be culpable for the loss.
 

(On another note this is the first time I’ve watched that play without a serious sting... still can’t watch wide left Cundiff... won’t even try.)

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5 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

No one said he didn’t have a good game. But not putting together a scoring drive in the 4th and then fumbling away another drive (good thing lost fumbles don’t count as interceptions), all when the pressure started mounting. Also if stats were all that matter; Freeman also had a great game too. I agree with Julio dominating that game... it was clear that when he was being fed he couldn’t be stopped, but then they stopped going his way as much.

Julio is the only person I’m not liable to give blame too. Everyone else is culpable. QB has too much power on the field to not be culpable after being on the opposite side of such a historic comeback. And before you say “Freeman let go of the block on Hightower that got Ryan plowed” that’s an excuse too.

New England overloaded that side of the line and were showing blitz... and they did blitz.

There’s no blame on the OL and RB there for that fumble; as a QB with that many guys at the LOS you’ve got to know to get the ball out quickly and/or protect the football if you can’t.

If Ryan simply throws the ball into the ground, they punt and pin NE deep into their side of the field, forcing them to use more time on the comeback... and likely falling short in the end.

Yet Ryan is just chilling back there trying to play hero ball, as if NE only sent 3 defenders. He only has one WR running a short route in Mohammad Sanu, which isn’t a problem, because the defender looked to be expecting a slant so Sanu had perfect leverage for that out route he ran... only Ryan is looking to target the deep play there... again as if he doesn’t have NE blitzing.

With that look, he quite easily should have targeted Sanu for the out route (or with 20 seconds on the clock when NE showed that look, IDK, audibled into another play.)

So yeah... Ryan melted down. When the game was in question, his decision making was quite bad. When Julio was mossing dudes, it made things look a whole lot easier for him.

How you can watch that video and can excuse or say Freeman even remotely did his job on that play is baffling to me.   The guy didn't even block 1 person at all like it might be one of the worst wiffs i ever seen and he knew he screwed up right away as he turned around and started running back toward Ryan.  It was an awful job by Freeman and i actually agree freeman ran well that day and is why i blame shanny a ton.  Shanny had a RB going 5 ypc up by 25 points and refused to use him for the last 2 quarters to milk the clock and help the defense get some rest.  It's obviously me and you look at that play and possibly football in general completely different if you can't put like 99% of that plays destruction on Freeman and his non attempt of a block the guy literally just touched his back and kept on running lol.

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4 hours ago, BlaqOptic said:

Football Outsiders.

You're right. Ryan does have 1 less 4QC. He also has 1/4 of the amount of 4QC in the post-season which is what separates them. In the biggest moments of his career Ben stepped up. In the biggest moment of his career Ryan's coach knew he couldn't be trusted.

FO OL rankings arent as strong as some other sites. For example, their pass block rating is simply sacks. Which a player like Ben is more likely to have more of since he is not afraid to hold onto the ball. 

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