CP3MVP Posted May 24, 2020 Share Posted May 24, 2020 31 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said: That is true, Brady ranks well on Football Outsiders. But their method definitely favors QBs who move the ball making consistent short gains. I'm not convinced that it is the single best way to evaluate QBs. For instance, to claim Brady was better than Manning in 2012 is a matter of opinion. Manning has better QBR. The stats are not context dependent, so it does not factor in quality of teammates. Also, going by DVOA, the 2010/11/12 Pats are not 4 of the 10 best offenses. Yes but if Peyton Manning had been on the Pats, he would have won at least 6 Super Bowls, and then we'd think of him as the greatest QB of the era. The thing that distinguishes Brady from the other QBs is being on great teams, not his actual performance. You’re right they had 3 of the top ten of all the last 30 years. 2012 was 12th while 2011 was 9th and 10/07 were 1/2. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.patspulpit.com/platform/amp/2017/6/20/15835792/patriots-dominate-football-outsiders-ranking-of-best-offenses-of-the-past-30-years Peyton’s coaches have higher career winning percentages without Peyton than Bill has without Tom. I could easily say if Tony Dungy can get to a NFC title game with Shaun King at QB, what could He do with Tom? So no, I won’t assume he’d win 6 Super Bowls with BB. Also why are you discounting Phil Jackson? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plat2 Posted May 24, 2020 Share Posted May 24, 2020 1 minute ago, CP3MVP said: Those two top ten players never won a finals game without Phil and his triangle offense. BB is still under 500 without Tom Shaq won with the Heat in 2006 and Kobe played the majority of his prime with Phil Jackson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CP3MVP Posted May 24, 2020 Share Posted May 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said: Uh check your history book. Shaq won a title with Wade. Belichick was a late bloomer as a coach. It took him a while to learn how to cheat properly. Riding wades coatails. He couldn’t win a finals game until Phil game along. Oh and at least we see you’re true agenda now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelKing728 Posted May 24, 2020 Share Posted May 24, 2020 Who's the Tom Brady of Basketball? Tom Brady is the GOAT of GOATs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plat2 Posted May 24, 2020 Share Posted May 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, CP3MVP said: Also why are you discounting Phil Jackson? Why are you discounting Belichick? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CP3MVP Posted May 24, 2020 Share Posted May 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, Plat2 said: Shaq won with the Heat in 2006 and Kobe played the majority of his prime with Phil Jackson. Being carried by wade and was getting swept out of the playoffs year in year out before Phil came. The reality is if we are going to knock Brady for bill then we have to knock Jordan for Phil, especially considering the gap between the successes of those coaches without their best player Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plat2 Posted May 24, 2020 Share Posted May 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, CP3MVP said: Riding wades coatails. He couldn’t win a finals game until Phil game along. He averaged 18/10 shooting 60% percent from the field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngusMcFife Posted May 24, 2020 Share Posted May 24, 2020 1 minute ago, CP3MVP said: Peyton’s coaches have higher career winning percentages without Peyton than Bill has without Tom. I could easily say if Tony Dungy can get to a NFC title game with Shaun King at QB, what could He do with Tom? So no, I won’t assume he’d win 6 Super Bowls with BB. Also why are you discounting Phil Jackson? Dungy did a great job in building that Tampa Bay defense, but I was never impressed by what he put together in Indy. Aside from the edge rushers, they just didn't have very good players. That falls more on the GM and player development. I think Phil Jackson is a good coach, but NBA coaches have far less impact on the game than NFL head coaches. NFL coaching and play calling is amazingly complex. Basketball teams just have a couple plays, and its up to the players to win or lose the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngusMcFife Posted May 24, 2020 Share Posted May 24, 2020 5 minutes ago, CP3MVP said: Riding wades coatails. He couldn’t win a finals game until Phil game along. Oh and at least we see you’re true agenda now Haha just a little joke. I'm very impressed with Belichick as a defensive coach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CP3MVP Posted May 24, 2020 Share Posted May 24, 2020 8 minutes ago, Plat2 said: Why are you discounting Belichick? I’m not. The other posted cited “well Brady had the GOAT coach”. So did Jordan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plat2 Posted May 24, 2020 Share Posted May 24, 2020 7 minutes ago, CP3MVP said: Being carried by wade and was getting swept out of the playoffs year in year out before Phil came. The reality is if we are going to knock Brady for bill then we have to knock Jordan for Phil, especially considering the gap between the successes of those coaches without their best player Isn't the same type of coaching, its harder to coach in football than it is in basketball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plat2 Posted May 24, 2020 Share Posted May 24, 2020 I don't think Brady the MJ of football, but thats because the nature of the two sports are just way too different, its apples and oranges...nobody is. But he's the closest one though by far. For example, with his greatest comeback performance with 28-3, he still had to wait and watch like all of us fans as the defense made crucial stops to give him a chance to come back. Through no fault of his own but it diminishes his direct impact on the win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted May 24, 2020 Share Posted May 24, 2020 12 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said: I'm mean, sure, Jordan wasn't the best player when he entered the league. Bird and Magic were in their primes, and Jordan hadn't gotten there yet. But Jordan led the league in PER every year from 1986-1993. In the 1986-87 season he led the league in PER, scored 37 per game shooting 48%. I'd argue he was the best player by 86-87, but obviously the Lakers and Celtics were stacked with HOFers. I don't really agree with that. Have you watched video from the 1980s compared to the 90s? In the 80s guys were just jogging around, playing in converse sneakers. The defense was a joke. The 90s are when basketball became very physical, and you had to be very athletic to play. There was no single rival for Jordan at that time, but the game became much tougher than it was in the 80s. It was much harder to dominate but he did anyways. The physicality was on a whole different level. Disagree with your assessment on Rodgers and Brees being top 10 all time. So did the NFL 100 list, which ranks Baugh, Favre, Elway, Unitas, Marino, Montana, Staubach, and Graham above them. I'd agree with that ranking. Rodgers and Brees look better because the rules favor passing since 2004. Agree, that's why I'm arguing that Brady isn't the Jordan of the NFL. No one is. Magic and Bird were better than Jordan his first two years in the NBA, that's all. He surpassed them in 86-87, and was the single best player for 8 straight years. Then he retired, came back, and was on par with the best players from 96-98 during the regular season, and then completely dominated everyone in the playoffs. If you watched the NBA finals those years, no way you would argue Malone and Barkley were better than Jordan. When Jordan entered the league Bird was in the middle of winning his 2nd of 3 consecutive MVP’s and then Magic won 3 of 4 MVP’s right after. There was not a single person that thought he surpassed him. He was one of the top raw talents in the league but Bird and Magic were winning titles and MVP’s left and right. The only people who didn’t watch in that era or probably barely watched Jordan in his prime and go by what they read about him. He was not better than those two for his first 5-6 years. And no the 80’s was an extremely athletic era. Jordan wasn’t even good enough to win MVP’s consistently in it despite playing more than half that decade. Bird, Magic, and Kareem were superior to any player not named Jordan who played in the 90’s and that’s a widely held belief amongst NBA fans and analysts and historians. You aren’t going to win an argument there. Baugh played in an early era where passing was nothing like it is now. Unitas basically set the template for the modern passing game. Those two and Graham are basically like comparing Jordan to Wilt and Russell. Montana and Marino are the only QB’s where the game was modern enough to make an apt comparison. Maybe Staubach but that’s another tough one as the 70’s was very transitional. In the past 50 years of football which most people would call the modern era of the game Brees and Rodgers are top 10 And considering how you described the 80’s and talking about looking at tape I wouldn’t question anyone about watching Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CP3MVP Posted May 24, 2020 Share Posted May 24, 2020 34 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said: Dungy did a great job in building that Tampa Bay defense, but I was never impressed by what he put together in Indy. Aside from the edge rushers, they just didn't have very good players. That falls more on the GM and player development. I think Phil Jackson is a good coach, but NBA coaches have far less impact on the game than NFL head coaches. NFL coaching and play calling is amazingly complex. Basketball teams just have a couple plays, and its up to the players to win or lose the game. Ok if you want to discount Dungy, I wouldn’t but for the sake of argument let use his other coaches Mora: 93-74 (55.6%) Caldwell: 38-42 (47.5%) Fox: 96-113 (45.9%) Kubiak: 75-73 (50.7%) Belichick's coaching record without Brady: 55-63 (45.6%) All his coaches have still been more successful without Peyton than Bill has been without Tom. If we’re not comparing basketball to football, then what’s the point of this thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CP3MVP Posted May 24, 2020 Share Posted May 24, 2020 32 minutes ago, Plat2 said: Isn't the same type of coaching, its harder to coach in football than it is in basketball. So why are we in this thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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