Who's the MJ of Football?

[AngusMcFife]

45 minutes ago, lancerman said:

When Jordan entered the league Bird was in the middle of winning his 2nd of 3 consecutive MVP’s and then Magic won 3 of 4 MVP’s right after. There was not a single person that thought he surpassed him. He was one of the top raw talents in the league but Bird and Magic were winning titles and MVP’s left and right. 

You don't think that has anything to do with their teammates? MVPs go to players on the winningest teams. Magic and Bird had 3 or 4 HOFers playing around them. They had ridiculously stacked teams. 

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Bird, Magic, and Kareem were superior to any player not named Jordan who played in the 90’s and that’s a widely held belief amongst NBA fans and analysts and historians. You aren’t going to win an argument there. 

I agree with that, I never made that argument. 

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Baugh played in an early era where passing was nothing like it is now. Unitas basically set the template for the modern passing game. Those two and Graham are basically like comparing Jordan to Wilt and Russell. Montana and Marino are the only QB’s where the game was modern enough to make an apt comparison. Maybe Staubach but that’s another tough one as the 70’s was very transitional. In the past 50 years of football which most people would call the modern era of the game Brees and Rodgers are top 10

Agree that the game has changed, but QB is still a QB, and all time means all time. I'm not sure Brees and Rodgers are better than Jim Kelly, Steve Young, or Dan Fouts once you adjust for the era. They might be, but it's not a lock. 

EDIT: Maybe this last statement is too much. Kelly probably not. But Young and Fouts peak years were just as dominant as Brees and Rodgers, adjusting for era.

Edited May 24, 2020 by AngusMcFife

[AngusMcFife]

6 minutes ago, CP3MVP said:

Ok if you want to  discount Dungy, I wouldn’t  but for the sake of argument let use his other coaches 

• Mora: 93-74 (55.6%)
• Caldwell: 38-42 (47.5%)
• Fox: 96-113 (45.9%)
• Kubiak: 75-73 (50.7%)

 

• Belichick's coaching record without Brady: 55-63 (45.6%)

All his coaches have still been more successful without Peyton than Bill has been without Tom. If we’re not comparing basketball to football, then what’s the point of this thread?

This seems like a very roundabout way to argue Brady is the GOAT of QBs. Jim Mora was at the end of the line when he coached Manning, and Kubiak had Manning for one year, and it was the only year Kubiak won a Super Bowl as HC. We know they are pretty good coaches overall based on their record. 

Fox's and Caldwell's winning %s without Manning are nearly identical to Belichick's winning % without Manning, so I'm not sure what that proves. 

The problem with your argument is that it assumes coaches always are performing their job at the same level. Isn't it possible that Belichick became a better coach over time, with more experience? 

[lancerman]

39 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

You don't think that has anything to do with their teammates? MVPs go to players on the winningest teams. Magic and Bird had 3 or 4 HOFers playing around them. They had ridiculously stacked teams. 

I agree with that, I never made that argument. 

Agree that the game has changed, but QB is still a QB, and all time means all time. I'm not sure Brees and Rodgers are better than Jim Kelly, Steve Young, or Dan Fouts once you adjust for the era. They might be, but it's not a lock. 

EDIT: Maybe this last statement is too much. Kelly probably not. But Young and Fouts peak years were just as dominant as Brees and Rodgers, adjusting for era.

I mean when MJ was dominating the league he also had the best team. 
 

As far as the rest Fouts and Young have amazing peaks but I got to give Brees and Rodgers the nod for career

[CP3MVP]

1 hour ago, AngusMcFife said:

This seems like a very roundabout way to argue Brady is the GOAT of QBs. Jim Mora was at the end of the line when he coached Manning, and Kubiak had Manning for one year, and it was the only year Kubiak won a Super Bowl as HC. We know they are pretty good coaches overall based on their record. 

Fox's and Caldwell's winning %s without Manning are nearly identical to Belichick's winning % without Manning, so I'm not sure what that proves. 

The problem with your argument is that it assumes coaches always are performing their job at the same level. Isn't it possible that Belichick became a better coach over time, with more experience? 

Brady is the GOAT QB and that debate has been over for years. In regards to Peyton, You said  that Peyton would win 6 or more supebrowls with Belichick. If we are going to make that argument than I said Brady would do fine with Peyton’s coaches. I then showed how Peyton’s coaches have always been really underrated and not the bums that people have made them out to be. 

 

For example  John fox won a playoff game with Tim Tebow who never started a game in the NFL after that season,  and was within 3 mins of winning a title with Jake Delhomme. I think Brady would do great with Fox like he would with all of Peyton’s coaches.

[AlexGreen#20]

26 minutes ago, CP3MVP said:

Brady is the GOAT QB and that debate has been over for years. In regards to Peyton, You said  that Peyton would win 6 or more supebrowls with Belichick. If we are going to make that argument than I said Brady would do fine with Peyton’s coaches. I then showed how Peyton’s coaches have always been really underrated and not the bums that people have made them out to be. 

 

For example  John fox won a playoff game with Tim Tebow who never started a game in the NFL after that season,  and was within 3 mins of winning a title with Jake Delhomme. I think Brady would do great with Fox like he would with all of Peyton’s coaches.

Brady has had the greatest CAREER of any QB ever. 

There's a whole lot to get into regarding the definition of greatness when it comes to individual performance. 

Jordan was the best player in the NBA for roughly a decade. When you go through it year by year, how many years was Brady the best QB in a given year?

[DannyB]

6 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Brady has had the greatest CAREER of any QB ever. 

There's a whole lot to get into regarding the definition of greatness when it comes to individual performance. 

Jordan was the best player in the NBA for roughly a decade. When you go through it year by year, how many years was Brady the best QB in a given year?

Again, you just can't compare the sports apples to apples. It doesn't apply. The better players in the NBA are going to more reliably and consistently have better statistics than their peers. This is due to the nature of the sport, and the nature of the way the league is set up The list could go on and on and on, but here are a few things to consider: NBA plays over 5x as many games, and every team plays every team multiple times. Every game is played inside, in a climate controlled environment. For the most part, the game plan and game flow dictate the following tactic: The best player gets the ball and either scores or passes to the player in the best position to score (obviously this is simplified extensively, but you get it). Whereas in football, every game presents an entirely unique situation and your team has to adapt and respond thusly. Running vs. passing, short passes vs. long, attack the middle or the perimeter, dominate possession or score quick, get after the quarterback or sit back, on and on and on.

Again, I can think of probably hundreds of things like this. A single football player cannot dominate both the regular season and win championships in as singular of a way as a basketball player can. This does not make them any less of a winner, a competitor, or any less impressive than Jordan.

[AlexGreen#20]

29 minutes ago, DannyB said:

Again, you just can't compare the sports apples to apples. It doesn't apply. The better players in the NBA are going to more reliably and consistently have better statistics than their peers. This is due to the nature of the sport, and the nature of the way the league is set up The list could go on and on and on, but here are a few things to consider: NBA plays over 5x as many games, and every team plays every team multiple times. Every game is played inside, in a climate controlled environment. For the most part, the game plan and game flow dictate the following tactic: The best player gets the ball and either scores or passes to the player in the best position to score (obviously this is simplified extensively, but you get it). Whereas in football, every game presents an entirely unique situation and your team has to adapt and respond thusly. Running vs. passing, short passes vs. long, attack the middle or the perimeter, dominate possession or score quick, get after the quarterback or sit back, on and on and on.

Again, I can think of probably hundreds of things like this. A single football player cannot dominate both the regular season and win championships in as singular of a way as a basketball player can. This does not make them any less of a winner, a competitor, or any less impressive than Jordan.

I'm not asking any football player to dominate both sides of the ball. At this point I'm just posing the question, how many years was Brady the best QB in the NFL? 4? 5? 

Jordan's resume is as dominant as it is because he was the best player in the league for a decade, and had tremendous team success. 

Brady has comparable team success, but he's not on that same level as an individual performer. 

[DannyB]

2 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

I'm not asking any football player to dominate both sides of the ball. At this point I'm just posing the question, how many years was Brady the best QB in the NFL? 4? 5? 

And I'm saying it's just different for a quarterback. Or, it looks different on the stat sheet compared to basketball.  I'd say you could make the argument that Brady has been the best quarterback in football pretty much from the mid 00s through 2017. There was a slight dip in the early 10s that he rectified when Jimmy G was drafted, but it was pretty slight. He proved how good he was pretty early on, so no matter what the stat sheet said at the end of the year, if you were posing the question "If you need one quarterback to win one game, who are you taking?", Tom Brady was a VERY reasonable answer (if not the consensus favorite), for like 10-15 years straight

[lancerman]

3 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

I'm not asking any football player to dominate both sides of the ball. At this point I'm just posing the question, how many years was Brady the best QB in the NFL? 4? 5? 

Jordan's resume is as dominant as it is because he was the best player in the league for a decade, and had tremendous team success. 

Brady has comparable team success, but he's not on that same level as an individual performer. 

The NFL is so dependent on other players that the best player can be influenced by factors outside of skill. 
 

In the early 2000’s there were many people in the media saying “well Peyton Manning has all the stats and is winning MVP’s but Brady is winning SB’s and if he had the same weapons as Manning he would do as well or better”. Then Brady got Moss and had a 16-0 season and 50 TD’s.

And to double down on that, in this very thread someone said they Magic and Bird were viewed as better in the 80’s because they had better teams. So it matters there too. 
 

Jordan also only won 5 MVP’s in his career so this idea that he was the best every single year is kinda suspect. He was great in PPG every year but that’s not the only stat 

 

But to humor you. 2007, 2010, 2017 are obvious. 2016 I think he was the best and only took a backseat to Ryan for missing 4 games but he was stupid dominant that year. I also think he was the best in 2015 and injuries on offense were what prevented his stats from overblowing Cam that year in passing. Brady was probably the next best QB after Rodgers in 2014 and was too 3 in 2011 and 2012. Brady also had a massive injury in the middle of his prime that cost him a season and another good chunk of a year (08 and 09) where he was recovering and getting back to form. 

Edited May 25, 2020 by lancerman

[CP3MVP]

4 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Brady has had the greatest CAREER of any QB ever. 

There's a whole lot to get into regarding the definition of greatness when it comes to individual performance. 

Jordan was the best player in the NBA for roughly a decade. When you go through it year by year, how many years was Brady the best QB in a given year?

Well actually I have Jordan as the best player from 90--93 and 96-98. So that’s 7 years in a career that went from 1984-2003. It should also be noted that many people argued Magic from 89-90, and it wasn’t some open and shut case.  I also don’t care about positions because not all positions are created equal. The 80’s and 90’s weren’t a great era for SG’s unlike the last 20 or so years or in the  NFL the golden age of Qb play which we’ve during Tom Brady’s prime. 

Edited May 25, 2020 by CP3MVP

[AlexGreen#20]

3 hours ago, CP3MVP said:

Well actually I have Jordan as the best player from 90--93 and 96-98. So that’s 7 years in a career that went from 1984-2003. It should also be noted that many people argued Magic from 89-90, and it wasn’t some open and shut case.  I also don’t care about positions because not all positions are created equal. The 80’s and 90’s weren’t a great era for SG’s unlike the last 20 or so years or in the  NFL the golden age of Qb play which we’ve during Tom Brady’s prime. 

You can have whatever the hell you want, Jordan put up 37/5/5 on 60% TS in 87/88 enroute to an MVP.

That the rest of the NBA wasn't immediately quick to realize that Jordan was better than Magic (And Magic was a PHENOMENAL player), doesn't mean that we need to be with the benefit of hindsight. Additionally, Jordan might not have been playing, but he would have been the best player in the league both of the years that he retired. If we're purely talking about ability, Jordan was the best player "in the league" from 87/88 to 97/98. 

[AlexGreen#20]

4 hours ago, lancerman said:

The NFL is so dependent on other players that the best player can be influenced by factors outside of skill. 
 

In the early 2000’s there were many people in the media saying “well Peyton Manning has all the stats and is winning MVP’s but Brady is winning SB’s and if he had the same weapons as Manning he would do as well or better”. Then Brady got Moss and had a 16-0 season and 50 TD’s.

And to double down on that, in this very thread someone said they Magic and Bird were viewed as better in the 80’s because they had better teams. So it matters there too. 
 

Jordan also only won 5 MVP’s in his career so this idea that he was the best every single year is kinda suspect. He was great in PPG every year but that’s not the only stat 

 

But to humor you. 2007, 2010, 2017 are obvious. 2016 I think he was the best and only took a backseat to Ryan for missing 4 games but he was stupid dominant that year. I also think he was the best in 2015 and injuries on offense were what prevented his stats from overblowing Cam that year in passing. Brady was probably the next best QB after Rodgers in 2014 and was too 3 in 2011 and 2012. Brady also had a massive injury in the middle of his prime that cost him a season and another good chunk of a year (08 and 09) where he was recovering and getting back to form. 

Basketball and football are different in the sense that the regular season and the playoffs are viewed very differently in the NBA. That Barkley and Malone have MVPs during Jordan's three peats has a ton to do with voter fatigue and Jordan just not trying that hard during the regular season. A current example is Russell Westbrook's MVP, nobody actually thinks Westbrook was the best player in the world that year. The guy just went all out during the regular season when better players were keeping it in a different gear to save up for the playoffs. 

I just don't see how you can say a guy is very clearly the GOAT when he wasn't even the greatest at his position for a big part of his career. 

[DannyB]

10 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

You can have whatever the hell you want, Jordan put up 37/5/5 on 60% TS in 87/88 enroute to an MVP.

That the rest of the NBA wasn't immediately quick to realize that Jordan was better than Magic (And Magic was a PHENOMENAL player), doesn't mean that we need to be with the benefit of hindsight. Additionally, Jordan might not have been playing, but he would have been the best player in the league both of the years that he retired. If we're purely talking about ability, Jordan was the best player "in the league" from 87/88 to 97/98. 

And as I stated above, for over a decade, if someone asked "Which quarterback are you taking if you need to win one game", you could have said Tom Brady and nobody would take issue to it.

[ninjapirate]

On 5/18/2020 at 1:47 PM, mse326 said:

There isn't one, but if I was going to pick one person it's Deion Sanders. MJ was more than the talent he was also the attitude and confidence. Deion is the one in the NFL that really combined those the best. Widely acknowledged the best at his position (though not nearly as much of a consensus), athletically absurd, has won multiple championships.

He also had that brief playing time in baseball just to further the comparison

deion was good at basbeall though so that makes him not comparable. 

[TypicalBrowns10]

It’s Jim brown. Absolutely dominated on the field. Had an impact outside of football and even had a movie career. Still to this day on any “best player of all time” list he’s top 3 depending on where it’s from. 

If that’s not good enough. Browns won the championship in 64. Their last one. He retired in 65. Weve been trash ever since. He literally checks off of the boxes. He even has a one up on Jordan when it comes to his involvement in the civil rights.