Who's the MJ of Football?

[DannyB]

1 hour ago, ninjapirate said:

deion was good at basbeall though so that makes him not comparable. 

Hey now, come on, you saw the entirely-raw-and-truthful, and not at all carefully produced and edited to bend to the will of the subject of the movie himself...

If he'd played another, oh.I dunno, 5-8 years, full time, and practiced in all of his spare time, he...might have played a few games in the big leagues!

[DannyB]

4 minutes ago, TypicalBrowns10 said:

It’s Jim brown. Absolutely dominated on the field. Had an impact outside of football and even had a movie career. Still to this day on any “best player of all time” list he’s top 3 depending on where it’s from. 

If that’s not good enough. Browns won the championship in 64. Their last one. He retired in 65. Weve been trash ever since. He literally checks off of the boxes. He even has a one up on Jordan when it comes to his involvement in the civil rights. 

Not even close. And I LOVE Jim Brown. I think he easily has a case for best RB ever, and he's one of those guys that you don't need to make the "of his era, against his peers" caveat for: He would undoubtedly have kicked *** no matter what decade of football he played in.

That said, there isn't the broad consensus that he's THE best ever, and his impact as a worldwide celebrity and cultural icon doesn't sniff Jordan's level.

[CP3MVP]

10 hours ago, lancerman said:

The NFL is so dependent on other players that the best player can be influenced by factors outside of skill. 
 

In the early 2000’s there were many people in the media saying “well Peyton Manning has all the stats and is winning MVP’s but Brady is winning SB’s and if he had the same weapons as Manning he would do as well or better”. Then Brady got Moss and had a 16-0 season and 50 TD’s.

And to double down on that, in this very thread someone said they Magic and Bird were viewed as better in the 80’s because they had better teams. So it matters there too. 
 

Jordan also only won 5 MVP’s in his career so this idea that he was the best every single year is kinda suspect. He was great in PPG every year but that’s not the only stat 

 

But to humor you. 2007, 2010, 2017 are obvious. 2016 I think he was the best and only took a backseat to Ryan for missing 4 games but he was stupid dominant that year. I also think he was the best in 2015 and injuries on offense were what prevented his stats from overblowing Cam that year in passing. Brady was probably the next best QB after Rodgers in 2014 and was too 3 in 2011 and 2012. Brady also had a massive injury in the middle of his prime that cost him a season and another good chunk of a year (08 and 09) where he was recovering and getting back to form. 

Yeah a lot of people just look at raw PPG with Jordan. He was the best scorer from early but I wasn’t always considered the best player. Bird and Magic were the best players of the 1980’s

[CP3MVP]

6 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

You can have whatever the hell you want, Jordan put up 37/5/5 on 60% TS in 87/88 enroute to an MVP.

That the rest of the NBA wasn't immediately quick to realize that Jordan was better than Magic (And Magic was a PHENOMENAL player), doesn't mean that we need to be with the benefit of hindsight. Additionally, Jordan might not have been playing, but he would have been the best player in the league both of the years that he retired. If we're purely talking about ability, Jordan was the best player "in the league" from 87/88 to 97/98. 

So it’s about the MVP? So Jordan wasn’t the best player in 89-90 or 97 then? The goal posts are constantly moving here.

Edited May 25, 2020 by CP3MVP

[CP3MVP]

When Mike doesn’t win media awards we make excuses, when Brady doesn’t win media awards its used as proof he wasn’t REALLY dominant lol.

[AlexGreen#20]

6 hours ago, DannyB said:

And as I stated above, for over a decade, if someone asked "Which quarterback are you taking if you need to win one game", you could have said Tom Brady and nobody would take issue to it.

And therein lies the difference.

One guy you wouldn't take issue with the opinion. 

The other guy you would take issue if the opinion was anything else, unless you were actually in the city of Houston.

[rfournier103]

The NFL has never had anyone who even came close to being the cultural phenomenon that Michael Jordan was. Jordan, Babe Ruth, and Muhammad Ali all transcended their sports and are American icons like Washington and Lincoln. 
 

The NFL just doesn’t have an icon. Careers are too short. It’s too much of a team sport. Too much saturation from other sports. It would take a player even greater than Tom Brady to reach Jordan’s level, and his face would have to be EVERYWHERE. I don’t think we’ll see another “Jordan” anytime soon in any sport. 

[lancerman]

3 hours ago, CP3MVP said:

So it’s about the MVP? So Jordan wasn’t the best player in 89-90 or 97 then? The goal posts are constantly moving here.

There’s a lot of revisionist history around Jordan from people who either only caught part of his career as a kid and grew up idolizing him or didn’t watch him but grew up with the constant dogma in the NBA about him. 
 

Hindsight or no hindsight the only people who think he was better than Bird or Magic  in the 80’s simply didn’t watch the 80’s. Bird was in the middle of arguably the greatest peak play in the sport and Magic was on fire right after that. Nobody who actually watched that era thinks “oh yeah we were just slow to see it was really Jordan”. Jordan was a strong player coming into his own who had flashes of what he would be in his prime, but was still building towards that. 

[lancerman]

3 hours ago, CP3MVP said:

When Mike doesn’t win media awards we make excuses, when Brady doesn’t win media awards its used as proof he wasn’t REALLY dominant lol.

This particularly funny when Brady pretty much primed to win MVP’s in 08 and 09 if he never got hurt right in the middle of his prime with his best teams and peak plays, but that’s not getting mentioned. 
 

But everyone makes excuses for Jordan quitting in the middle of his prime and trying to say “well he probably would have won MVP’s and titles then too” and give him credit for something he never did 

[AngusMcFife]

10 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

You can have whatever the hell you want, Jordan put up 37/5/5 on 60% TS in 87/88 enroute to an MVP.

That the rest of the NBA wasn't immediately quick to realize that Jordan was better than Magic (And Magic was a PHENOMENAL player), doesn't mean that we need to be with the benefit of hindsight. Additionally, Jordan might not have been playing, but he would have been the best player in the league both of the years that he retired. If we're purely talking about ability, Jordan was the best player "in the league" from 87/88 to 97/98. 

Exactly. Now that the analytics revolution in basketball is complete, is it obvious that Jordan surpassed Bird and Magic sometime in the mid-late-1980s. Jordan was a better offensive player, and a way better defensive player. The prevailing wisdom of the late 1980s is not relevant, because we have learned so much more these days about what makes a basketball player good, and helps his team win. 

[AngusMcFife]

1 minute ago, lancerman said:

This particularly funny when Brady pretty much primed to win MVP’s in 08 and 09 if he never got hurt right in the middle of his prime with his best teams and peak plays, but that’s not getting mentioned. 
 

But everyone makes excuses for Jordan quitting in the middle of his prime and trying to say “well he probably would have won MVP’s and titles then too” and give him credit for something he never did 

Brady has 3 all-pros in his career spanning almost 20 years. I'm not making excuses, the facts are right in front of you. Jordan has 11 all NBA awards. 

[AngusMcFife]

10 minutes ago, lancerman said:

There’s a lot of revisionist history around Jordan from people who either only caught part of his career as a kid and grew up idolizing him or didn’t watch him but grew up with the constant dogma in the NBA about him. 
 

Hindsight or no hindsight the only people who think he was better than Bird or Magic  in the 80’s simply didn’t watch the 80’s. Bird was in the middle of arguably the greatest peak play in the sport and Magic was on fire right after that. Nobody who actually watched that era thinks “oh yeah we were just slow to see it was really Jordan”. Jordan was a strong player coming into his own who had flashes of what he would be in his prime, but was still building towards that. 

Obviously Bird and Magic looked better, being flanked by 4 HOFers at various points in the 1980s. But basketball knowledge has grown so much through advanced metrics in the past decade. The prevailing wisdom of the 1980s was wrong. 

Think about how people realize how important defense is. It's half the game. Bird and Magic were decent defenders, and Jordan was an elite defender. So you want to tell me that Magic and Bird were so much better than Jordan on offense, that it washes out the fact that Jordan ran circles around them on defense? GTFOH. 

[lancerman]

1 minute ago, AngusMcFife said:

Brady has 3 all-pros in his career spanning almost 20 years. I'm not making excuses, the facts are right in front of you. Jordan has 11 all NBA awards. 

Different sports. It’s much easier to win an All NBA than All Pro in the NFL. A lot of people in this thread are trying to compare sports that are fundamentally different. 
 

Therws 10 players with 10 First Team All NBA’s it more. There’s 2 in the NFL and one guy had to play for 20 years to do it and the other was on the 60’s. 
 

Jordan is tied with Jerry West, Bob Cousy and Bob Pettit. Malone, Bryant, and Lebdoj both have more first team All NBA’s then Jordan. 
 

Kareem has the same amount of first teams, 4 more second teams, 1 more MVP, the same amount of titles, is ahead of Jordan in all time points, field goals, assists, FG%, EFG% and TS%. 
 

Is Kareem better? 

[lancerman]

4 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

Obviously Bird and Magic looked better, being flanked by 4 HOFers at various points in the 1980s. But basketball knowledge has grown so much through advanced metrics in the past decade. The prevailing wisdom of the 1980s was wrong. 

Think about how people realize how important defense is. It's half the game. Bird and Magic were decent defenders, and Jordan was an elite defender. So you want to tell me that Magic and Bird were so much better than Jordan on offense, that it washes out the fact that Jordan ran circles around them on defense? GTFOH. 

Ahhh the younger people are right and the people that actually saw that era are wrong. 
 

 

[AngusMcFife]

3 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Different sports. It’s much easier to win an All NBA than All Pro in the NFL. A lot of people in this thread are trying to compare sports that are fundamentally different. 
 

Therws 10 players with 10 First Team All NBA’s it more. There’s 2 in the NFL and one guy had to play for 20 years to do it and the other was on the 60’s. 
 

Jordan is tied with Jerry West, Bob Cousy and Bob Pettit. Malone, Bryant, and Lebdoj both have more first team All NBA’s then Jordan. 
 

Kareem has the same amount of first teams, 4 more second teams, 1 more MVP, the same amount of titles, is ahead of Jordan in all time points, field goals, assists, FG%, EFG% and TS%. 
 

Is Kareem better? 

No. Kareem played for 20 years, obviously his counting stats are higher. And centers shoot close to the basket, so their FG%s are higher.