Who's the MJ of Football?

[Plat2]

My list would be

1. Ali 

2. Pele

3. Woods

4. Phelps

5. Federer

Then I might put Sugar Ray Robinson, Bolt, Nicklaus, Bradman, Gretzky all over Jordan too. Its hard enough trying to compare between team sports GOATs, addind solo sports athletes is damn near impossible.

[DannyB]

20 minutes ago, Hunter2_1 said:

By Indians, yeah. They live and breathe it. VERY protective.

Batting average:

Bradman - 99.9 (in an era with no helmets and bowlers could target head) 

Tendulkar - 53.8 (in an era with massive bats and protection etc)

But you're right, some people do say Tendulkar. But it's homerism  

Okay, so...I know next to NOTHING about cricket, but after doing some cursory research, like...is that record legit!?!? How can that be remotely possible? How can one person in a sport do something, over a long period of time, with MANY instances of having to perform it, at a rate of almost double what even the BEST players in the world do? I mean is that even possible? How verifiable are his stats?

Without knowing more about the sport, I don't even know exactly how to contextualize it or compare to it. It seems like it would be if a prolific scorer in basketball not only outscored everyone else, but did it by shooting 95% from the field, while. even GOOD players are just hovering above 50%.

If this is true (and there's nothing to suggest otherwise, besides my own shocked disbelief), then he is the most dominant sportsman of all time. That's not just me saying that, that's from statisticians.

Oh crap, just seeing a comparison now on wiki: What he accomplished is like an NBA player finishing a long career with an average of 43 points per game. The current record is 30 points per game.

This is insanity. MJ isn't even the Don Bradman of basketball.

[DannyB]

5 minutes ago, Plat2 said:

My list would be

1. Ali 

2. Pele

3. Woods

4. Phelps

5. Federer

Then I might put Sugar Ray Robinson, Bolt, Nicklaus, Bradman, Gretzky all over Jordan too. Its hard enough trying to compare between team sports GOATs, addind solo sports athletes is damn near impossible.

1. Bradman

2. Bradman

3. Bradman

4. Bradman

5. Bradman

[Plat2]

Yeah, I know nothing about cricket or Bradman but reading about him and his career stats is just mindblowing.

[lancerman]

6 hours ago, DannyB said:

I'm thinking that if you have to offer up multiple examples from the same sport, then they're not really a comp for MJ.

Soccer is such a big sport that it’s very possible that both Pele and Maradonna are much bigger. Also Nicklaus is so far removed from Tiger. It’s like comparing MJ to Wilt or Russell. Likewise boxing is global. In his day Ali was bigger, but so was Louis. 

[blizofoz45]

No one in football has ever come close to MJ.  I remember living in a small rural town in 1990 and it was important to have a pair of Air Jordan hightops.  

What did Tom Brady endorse?  Was it Calvin Klein or some kind perfume?  I can't even remember.

[AngusMcFife]

6 hours ago, Plat2 said:

My list would be

1. Ali 

2. Pele

3. Woods

4. Phelps

5. Federer

Then I might put Sugar Ray Robinson, Bolt, Nicklaus, Bradman, Gretzky all over Jordan too. Its hard enough trying to compare between team sports GOATs, addind solo sports athletes is damn near impossible.

Boxing: Was Ali the best boxer ever, or one of the greatest who was very well known for his personality and life story? I don't think you can ding him for those late career losses, that's his Wizard's era. But how do you compare him to a perfect fighter like Mayweather? Or insane peak of Tyson? Overall, Ali is probably the best choice, a combination of greatness and fame. But not a clear cut GOAT like Jordan. 6/10 of a Jordan.   

Soccer: Pele is a good pick, not sure if I can evaluate how close Maradona or Messi are. Pele was the global icon. Close to GOAT status, but it can be debated. 5/10 of a Jordan.   

Golf: Woods had such an insanely high peak, but then a lengthly bad period. I wonder if Nicklaus is better, he has more titles and was more consistent. But Woods is the global icon, and more dominant in his peak. 7/10 of a Jordan. 

Swimming: I guess you can include Phelps, but Olympic sports have so few people competing in them that it is more common for someone to completely dominate the competition. There are some extremely dominant cross-country skiers and biathletes, are we including them? 3/10 of a Jordan. 

Tennis: Agree on Federer, even though Nadal and Djokavic might catch him in titles. Peak Federer was the best. Only Serbs and Spaniards would argue otherwise. 8/10 of a Jordan  

Baseball: Babe Ruth. I think this one is evident. Babe has the peak performance, transformed the sport, and won a ton of championships. He the closest to Jordan in a major team sport. 10/10 of a Jordan

[sportjames23]

22 hours ago, Plat2 said:

If we include all the GOAT's and not just the team sport athletes, I'm not sure MJ makes the top 5. 

[Plat2]

1 hour ago, sportjames23 said:

You just finished watching The Last Dance didn't you?

[Plat2]

4 hours ago, AngusMcFife said:

Boxing: Was Ali the best boxer ever, or one of the greatest who was very well known for his personality and life story? I don't think you can ding him for those late career losses, that's his Wizard's era. But how do you compare him to a perfect fighter like Mayweather? Or insane peak of Tyson? Overall, Ali is probably the best choice, a combination of greatness and fame. But not a clear cut GOAT like Jordan. 6/10 of a Jordan.   

Soccer: Pele is a good pick, not sure if I can evaluate how close Maradona or Messi are. Pele was the global icon. Close to GOAT status, but it can be debated. 5/10 of a Jordan.   

Golf: Woods had such an insanely high peak, but then a lengthly bad period. I wonder if Nicklaus is better, he has more titles and was more consistent. But Woods is the global icon, and more dominant in his peak. 7/10 of a Jordan. 

Swimming: I guess you can include Phelps, but Olympic sports have so few people competing in them that it is more common for someone to completely dominate the competition. There are some extremely dominant cross-country skiers and biathletes, are we including them? 3/10 of a Jordan. 

Tennis: Agree on Federer, even though Nadal and Djokavic might catch him in titles. Peak Federer was the best. Only Serbs and Spaniards would argue otherwise. 8/10 of a Jordan  

Baseball: Babe Ruth. I think this one is evident. Babe has the peak performance, transformed the sport, and won a ton of championships. He the closest to Jordan in a major team sport. 10/10 of a Jordan

You make valid points on almost all of them, like I said when it comes to comparing or making a list like this its going to be extremely subjective. I gotta disagree with Phelps though, having 28 olympic medals is absolutely insane and dominant, no matter how you put it.

Ali is on top of my list, his resume is just legendary beating all of the top heavyweights when it was at its strongest era. He beat some of the greatest heavyweights in Frazier twice, Foreman, Liston, Quarry twice (43-5-4), Floyd Patterson twice (43-4), Ken Norton 3 times (29-1) and I could keep going...his boxing record is just stacked with all time greats and he beat them all.

Edited May 30, 2020 by Plat2

[kwolf68]

I wouldn't even rank Brady ahead of Bart Starr (and I do like Tom Brady and think he is a great QB so don't get me wrong). But, how many Patriots championships have this dubious black cloud of incompetence, stupidity or luck that surrounds it? An idiot CB who intercepts Brady the game is over but he doesn't fall down and fumbles it Back to New England...or Seattle's hideous decision to NOT run Lynch...the tuck rule....Atlanta going so far Conservative even Rush Limbaugh blushed in blowing a 24 point lead...deflate gate....videos...

Hell, even after the Tuck rule game it took epic levels of Mike Martz incompetence to see the game through as bellichick outcoached resident knucklehead Martz in that game. Complete dumb****ery by Martz who ran Faulk a measly 17 times (to an almost 5 yard per carry clip) while passing it 45 or something. Hoodie knew Martz was too stupid to actually run it and it was game over. 

As for Bart Starr, he has the wins and titles. He is also one of the greatest leaders in NFL history. The ice bowl touchdown was Starr's idea. Because Packers RBs couldn't get any traction on the ice slick in which they were playing, Starr suggested to the Master himself, Lombardi, on the play. I don't think anyone other than Starr even knew what play was being called. Despite Starr's overall brilliance as a field general, a champion and a world class human being, his stats are fairly pedestrian so that's why I wouldn't rank Starr as "MJ level" because Michael was crazy insane literally winning games with magic potion and pixie dust not to mention beyond epic generational basketball talent, it was incredible, but Starr should get a bit more love.

Sincerely, 

Bears fan. 

Edited May 30, 2020 by kwolf68

[DannyB]

17 minutes ago, kwolf68 said:

But, how many Patriots championships have this dubious black cloud of incompetence, stupidity or luck that surrounds it? An idiot CB who intercepts Brady the game is over but he doesn't fall down and fumbles it Back to New England...or Seattle's hideous decision to NOT run Lynch...the tuck rule....Atlanta going so far Conservative even Rush Limbaugh blushed in blowing a 24 point lead...deflate gate....videos...

Okay, what about the game they lost? The helmet catch by Tyree, the Manningham catch and Welker's drop, not playing Malcom Butler. Any of those things going the other way could have EASILY flipped the outcome. If they won one or two close Super Bowls, that's one thing. That could be debated. But when he's won SIX, and lost THREE close ones? Well, that's not just luck, that's water finding its level.

Should we question other close Super Bowls? Steelers v. Arizona? Ravens v. Niners? You could nitpick a ton of them

[kwolf68]

13 minutes ago, DannyB said:

Okay, what about the game they lost? The helmet catch by Tyree, the Manningham catch and Welker's drop, not playing Malcom Butler. Any of those things going the other way could have EASILY flipped the outcome. If they won one or two close Super Bowls, that's one thing. That could be debated. But when he's won SIX, and lost THREE close ones? Well, that's not just luck, that's water finding its level.

Should we question other close Super Bowls? Steelers v. Arizona? Ravens v. Niners? You could nitpick a ton of them

Yea, good points. I figured someone would bring up the ear hole catch. To be honest, I just wanted to rile up the masses.   I am literally going insane. 

My "final answer" is I don't see an MJ of pro football. Brady was part of the equation a damn great part but only part of it...if he's on any other team no titles. And as amazing as Rice was, NO receiver I don't care how good he is can ever carry that kind of weight. Niners had excellent defenses, good to great ends/receivers beyond Jerry and one of the most underrated running backs ever, Roger Craig. Craig is not in the Hall of Fame, but my eye test and even the numbers tell me he belongs in Canton. No 49er fan, but he was an absolutely sensational football player. If I was Bill Walsh and I didn't have Jerry yea that would suck, but I still got a bunch of greatness otherwise and I bet they still win anyway. 

Football is truly a team game, if one guy could win it all players like Marino, Fouts, Tarkenton,Kelly would have won it all. I am a bit antagonistic on "he never won it all" thing. I am sorry I believe Dan Marino, Dan Fouts, Jim Kelly and Fran Tarkenton were all VASTLY superior to Trent Dilfer and even Mark Rypien. Using "Super Bowl wins" as a qualifier of individual greatness is madness. It makes no sense. The Super Bowl teams had far more than 1 or 2 great players, they typically had a ton of them on offense and defense. 

I do believe Brady is also vastly superior to Dilfer, Rypien, etc...because he has been able to be productive even as the offensive players around him have been in flux. I get that and respect it. But he sure as hell isn't doing it alone. No one in NFL history ever has.  

 

 

 

Edited May 30, 2020 by kwolf68

[DannyB]

5 minutes ago, kwolf68 said:

My "final answer" is I don't see an MJ of pro football.

That's pretty much the consensus here when you factor in his brilliance in his sport combined with his stratospheric level of being a global brand and icon.

[kwolf68]

1 minute ago, DannyB said:

That's pretty much the consensus here when you factor in his brilliance in his sport combined with his stratospheric level of being a global brand and icon.

Yep. I also can't remember an athlete doing what he did on the field of play at those moments he did them. It was remarkable. The Steelers of the 70s, Niners of the 80s or Pats of the new century success was all amazing, but no one player seemed to be the focus of those successes like Jordan.