Who's the MJ of Football?

[Todd Pence]

Michael Jackson, 1980's Seahawks linebacker.

[CP3MVP]

Phil Jackson is more successful without Jordan than Bill Belichick is without Tom Brady. 

[AngusMcFife]

7 hours ago, DannyB said:

Yeah I would agree Jordan had a bigger imprint, but that's just the nature of the game, like you're saying. So I'm not going to take imaginary points away from Brady for that. A tennis player has even more part in whether they win a grand slam event or not, since...it's just them. Doesn't mean I would classify Federer or Djokovic has better winners or better competitors or whatever, than Jordan.

I'm not really even sure what's being debated here, it seems like you're in agreement with me. I think what Brady has accomplished is just as impressive as Jordan.

My whole point, relating it back to what the thread was asking, is that I think Brady is the comp to MJ when it comes to on-field domination and accomplishment. It's the off-field worldwide cultural impact that Brady can't touch Jordan on.

But Brady just has not been that dominant. Jordan was better than all his contemporaries, every year.

Manning was better than Brady in Brady's early career.
Brady was the best QB in 2007, 2010, and 2017. 
But Manning, Rodgers, and Brees could all claim to be the best QB at different points in the 2010s. 

Brady only made three 1st team all pro. Compare that with Jordan who had eleven 1st team NBAs. Not really even close. 

[CP3MVP]

22 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

But Brady just has not been that dominant. Jordan was better than all his contemporaries, every year.

Manning was better than Brady in Brady's early career.
Brady was the best QB in 2007, 2010, and 2017. 
But Manning, Rodgers, and Brees could all claim to be the best QB at different points in the 2010s. 

Brady only made three 1st team all pro. Compare that with Jordan who had eleven 1st team NBAs. Not really even close. 

Competition at qb during the 00’s-10’s is light years ahead of SG in the 80’s and 90’s which frankly was garbage. Who was the second best SG of Jordan’s era? Clyde? Compare that to Aaron Rodgers.

Jordan  dominated a weak era of perimeter players particularly at his position.  That’s one of the reasons he looked so far ahead of everyone. 

Edited May 24, 2020 by CP3MVP

[AngusMcFife]

26 minutes ago, CP3MVP said:

Competition at qb during the 00’s-10’s is light years ahead of SG in the 80’s and 90’s which frankly was garbage. Who was the second best SG of Jordan’s era? Clyde? Compare that to Aaron Rodgers.

Jordan  dominated a weak era of perimeter players particularly at his position.  That’s one of the reasons he looked so far ahead of everyone. 

Well Jordan was also better than all the PGs, SFs, PFs, and Cs during his time too. He tailed off a little in the regular season in 97-98. Look at win shares, PER, VORP, etc. 

The point is Jordan was way more dominant than Brady in their respective eras. Brady was one QB of several great QBs of the past 20 years, who happened to have the greatest coach of his era. Jordan was the GOAT of his sport, at any position. 

[CP3MVP]

15 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

Well Jordan was also better than all the PGs, SFs, PFs, and Cs during his time too. He tailed off a little in the regular season in 97-98. Look at win shares, PER, VORP, etc. 

The point is Jordan was way more dominant than Brady in their respective eras. Brady was one QB of several great QBs of the past 20 years, who happened to have the greatest coach of his era. Jordan was the GOAT of his sport, at any position. 

Well if we are going to advanced stats like PER/Winshares, Football Outsiders ranked Brady as their number 1 QB in 2009/2012 in  seasons in DYAR and DVOA, 2 seasons which he wasn’t 1st team all pro. PFF ranked him the number 1 QB of 2016(highest graded QB season in their history) and their top overall player of the decade from 2010-2020. So that’s individual dominance to me. He also led 4 of the ten best offenses in the history of the sport, 2007 Pats and the 2010/2011/2012  Patriots. 

And Brady is considered the best QB of the best era of QBs, not “just one of several great QBs”. Jordan had also far and away the best coach of his era, the difference is Phil  is more successful without him than BB is without Tom. He won 5 titles without Jordan. Belichick has won one playoff game without Brady

Edited May 24, 2020 by CP3MVP

[lancerman]

59 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

But Brady just has not been that dominant. Jordan was better than all his contemporaries, every year.

Manning was better than Brady in Brady's early career.
Brady was the best QB in 2007, 2010, and 2017. 
But Manning, Rodgers, and Brees could all claim to be the best QB at different points in the 2010s. 

Brady only made three 1st team all pro. Compare that with Jordan who had eleven 1st team NBAs. Not really even close. 

1. A lot of that is an era thing and quite frankly a revising of that. When Jordan came in the league Larry Bird was at his peak and he was not better. And Bird’s peak was one of the best peaks ever and if you transposed that to the 90’s he still would have racked up MVP’s during Jordan’s run. Same a couple years later with Magic Johnson when he won 3 of 4 MVP’s (Jordan was the aberration in that era). Those were his early years. 
 

Then yes he went on his run in the 90’s.... after Bird’s back was shot and after Magic prematurely retired. Then the next decade was the Shaq/Wade/Kobe/Lebron/Duncan era. Then the next decade was Lebron/Curry/Durant/Harden.
 

In both cases I think the vast majority of NBA fans would concede that the competition of the 90’s was inferior to the 80’s, 00’s, 10’s. Hakeem was the best non Jordan player of that run and he would not have been the best or 2nd best player in writer of those decades. 

So Jordan wasn’t the best starting out.... and he definitely got boost from when he played. 
 

Meanwhile Brady player in an era where you had Manning who is universally viewed as a top 3 all time and Brees and Rodgers who are near universally top 10 at the position. Also Farve played a good decade into Brady’s career as well. So Brady had 4 guys who are like top 10 All timers in his era and at least a decade of their career overlapped. That would be like if Jordan player in an era with Lebron, Kobe, Bird, and then Kareem in his last decade in the game. Point is, you are talking about high talent where it’s impossible for anyone at all to dominate consistently without breaks. 
 

Put it this way, Manning was top 3 all time and he hit his prime earlier and always had better offenses. If you go back to the media and analysts in the era, Brady was still compared as a 3rd/4th year starter to a guy who was 6th/7th year starter who was playing with Marvin Harrison (HOF), Reggie Wayne (borderline HOF), Dallas Clark (one of better TE’s of that time) and Edgerrin James (HOF). Meanwhile Brady was playing with Deion Branch (never had a Pro Bowl, All Pro, or broke 1000 yards), Troy Brown (never had a Pro Bowl, All Pro and broke 1000 yards once), no names like Fleminster, Daniel Graham, and Fauria at TE (Watson didn’t get playing time until 05 despite coming in 04) and only just got Dillion who is a 4x Pro Bowler but not a HOF’er. That’s insane when you look at the talent difference and the fact that it was even still debate at the time. That’s like taking Jordan and giving him his first few years Bulls teams and being like “why aren’t you winning MVP’s like Lebron on the Heat with Wade, Bosch and Allen” and giving Lebron 3 extra years of experience on top of that. Then the other 3x Manning won MVP was the year Brady was injured, the year he was coming back and a slow start and 2013 when Welker left, Hernandez got arrested, Gronk missed most of the year, the starting RB got benched for fumbling, and Dobson and Thompkins who both player for less than 5 years as starters. Then yeah Rodgers was having a peak the equivalent of Steve Young for a couple years (btw if you compare prime Rodgers stats from 08 on with Brady who was in his 30’s/40’s they are extremely close in that time period). Then you had aberration years for Cam and Ryan (where Brady was just behind then both times), which also happened to Jordan with Barkley and others. 
 

The sport alone makes it not an apt comparison. It’s just impossible even in a weak era for one guy to consistently be the best every single year. But not only did one play in a historically stacked era a his position,  Jordan doesn’t even live up to the standard of “better than all his contemporaries, every year”. Magic and Bird we’re having great runs where they were clearly better at the point, and then in the 90’s Malone and Barkley were having years where they were arguably better and even if Jordan wasn’t gone Hakeem had a monster year in there and all those guys had less help 

[thebestever6]

Oh wow we're gonna act like Troy Brown was average now even if he played well and played both ways lol let's not also forget Brady's defense

[Plat2]

3 hours ago, CP3MVP said:

Phil Jackson is more successful without Jordan than Bill Belichick is without Tom Brady. 

Maybe having 2 top 10 players of all time after Jordan had something to do with that. The Patriots were also prerry decent that one year with Matt Cassell.

Edited May 24, 2020 by Plat2

[AngusMcFife]

1 hour ago, CP3MVP said:

Well if we are going to advanced stats like PER/Winshares, Football Outsiders ranked Brady as their number 1 QB in 2009/2012 in  seasons in DYAR and DVOA, 2 seasons which he wasn’t 1st team all pro. PFF ranked him the number 1 QB of 2016(highest graded QB season in their history) and their top overall player of the decade from 2010-2020. So that’s individual dominance to me. He also led 4 of the ten best offenses in the history of the sport, 2007 Pats and the 2010/2011/2012  Patriots. 

That is true, Brady ranks well on Football Outsiders. But their method definitely favors QBs who move the ball making consistent short gains. I'm not convinced that it is the single best way to evaluate QBs. For instance, to claim Brady was better than Manning in 2012 is a matter of opinion. Manning has better QBR. The stats are not context dependent, so it does not factor in quality of teammates.  

Also, going by DVOA, the 2010/11/12 Pats are not 4 of the 10 best offenses. 

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And Brady is considered the best QB of the best era of QBs, not “just one of several great QBs”.

Yes but if Peyton Manning had been on the Pats, he would have won at least 6 Super Bowls, and then we'd think of him as the greatest QB of the era. The thing that distinguishes Brady from the other QBs is being on great teams, not his actual performance. 

[Plat2]

The 90s era in basketball was not weak at all, you had HOFs all over the place, you had Barkley, Olajuwon, D. Rob, Malone, Stockton, Drexler, Ewing, Payton, Kemp, Mourning, Miller, Penny. Alot of these players were elite two-way players, its not like today's stars where scoring is emphasized and defense is lackluster, so the offensive stats of today will be inflated.

You also had a much more physical style of play and hand checking was still allowed. Jordan, while not winning championships yet, lead the league in scoring multiple times AND was first team all-defense, winning DPOY early in his career in the 80s where you had a plethora of greats players and great teams.

I know this is a football forum and Brady will get his just due, deservedly so but lets not diminish what MJ did to prop Brady up. Like I said all rings are not created equal, in my opinion MJ had more imprint on his 6 rings than Brady does his 6, that's just the nature of the two sport.

Edited May 24, 2020 by Plat2

[CP3MVP]

38 minutes ago, Plat2 said:

Maybe having 2 top 10 players of all time after Jordan had something to do with that. The Patriots were also prerry decent that one year with Matt Cassell.

Those two top ten players never won a finals game without Phil and his triangle offense. BB is still under 500 without Tom 

[AngusMcFife]

1 hour ago, lancerman said:

1. A lot of that is an era thing and quite frankly a revising of that. When Jordan came in the league Larry Bird was at his peak and he was not better. And Bird’s peak was one of the best peaks ever and if you transposed that to the 90’s he still would have racked up MVP’s during Jordan’s run. Same a couple years later with Magic Johnson when he won 3 of 4 MVP’s (Jordan was the aberration in that era). Those were his early years. 

I'm mean, sure, Jordan wasn't the best player when he entered the league. Bird and Magic were in their primes, and Jordan hadn't gotten there yet. But Jordan led the league in PER every year from 1986-1993. In the 1986-87 season he led the league in PER, scored 37 per game shooting 48%. I'd argue he was the best player by 86-87, but obviously the Lakers and Celtics were stacked with HOFers. 

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In both cases I think the vast majority of NBA fans would concede that the competition of the 90’s was inferior to the 80’s, 00’s, 10’s. Hakeem was the best non Jordan player of that run and he would not have been the best or 2nd best player in writer of those decades. 

So Jordan wasn’t the best starting out.... and he definitely got boost from when he played. 
 

I don't really agree with that. Have you watched video from the 1980s compared to the 90s? In the 80s guys were just jogging around, playing in converse sneakers. The defense was a joke. The 90s are when basketball became very physical, and you had to be very athletic to play. There was no single rival for Jordan at that time, but the game became much tougher than it was in the 80s. It was much harder to dominate but he did anyways. The physicality was on a whole different level. 

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Meanwhile Brady player in an era where you had Manning who is universally viewed as a top 3 all time and Brees and Rodgers who are near universally top 10 at the position. Also Farve played a good decade into Brady’s career as well. So Brady had 4 guys who are like top 10 All timers in his era and at least a decade of their career overlapped. That would be like if Jordan player in an era with Lebron, Kobe, Bird, and then Kareem in his last decade in the game. Point is, you are talking about high talent where it’s impossible for anyone at all to dominate consistently without breaks. 
 

Disagree with your assessment on Rodgers and Brees being top 10 all time. So did the NFL 100 list, which ranks Baugh, Favre, Elway, Unitas, Marino, Montana, Staubach, and Graham above them. I'd agree with that ranking. Rodgers and Brees look better because the rules favor passing since 2004. 

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The sport alone makes it not an apt comparison.

Agree, that's why I'm arguing that Brady isn't the Jordan of the NFL. No one is. 

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It’s just impossible even in a weak era for one guy to consistently be the best every single year. But not only did one play in a historically stacked era a his position,  Jordan doesn’t even live up to the standard of “better than all his contemporaries, every year”. Magic and Bird we’re having great runs where they were clearly better at the point, and then in the 90’s Malone and Barkley were having years where they were arguably better and even if Jordan wasn’t gone Hakeem had a monster year in there and all those guys had less help 

 Magic and Bird were better than Jordan his first two years in the NBA, that's all. He surpassed them in 86-87, and was the single best player for 8 straight years. Then he retired, came back, and was on par with the best players from 96-98 during the regular season, and then completely dominated everyone in the playoffs. If you watched the NBA finals those years, no way you would argue Malone and Barkley were better than Jordan. 

[DannyB]

3 hours ago, CP3MVP said:

3 hours ago, AngusMcFife said:

But Brady just has not been that dominant. Jordan was better than all his contemporaries, every year.

Manning was better than Brady in Brady's early career.
Brady was the best QB in 2007, 2010, and 2017. 
But Manning, Rodgers, and Brees could all claim to be the best QB at different points in the 2010s. 

Brady only made three 1st team all pro. Compare that with Jordan who had eleven 1st team NBAs. Not really even close. 

Competition at qb during the 00’s-10’s is light years ahead of SG in the 80’s and 90’s which frankly was garbage. Who was the second best SG of Jordan’s era? Clyde? Compare that to Aaron Rodgers.

Jordan  dominated a weak era of perimeter players particularly at his position.  That’s one of the reasons he looked so far ahead of everyone. 

You are correct, but it's also where the nature of the sports comes in. So many factors go into a football player's success and production, it's just impossible to try and relate the two.

Also, despite having elite contemporaries, I would say that you could convincingly argue that Brady was the best quarterback every year in the 10s. And just when it looked like that started to wane a little bit, he rededicated himself, and ended up playing perhaps his best football

[AngusMcFife]

3 minutes ago, CP3MVP said:

Those two top ten players never won a finals game without Phil and his triangle offense. BB is still under 500 without Tom 

Uh check your history book. Shaq won a title with Wade. 

Belichick was a late bloomer as a coach. It took him a while to learn how to cheat properly.