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2020 Green Bay Packers OL


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15 hours ago, Donzo said:

 

I had no idea Patrick had this type of RAS... Those 10 & 20 yard splits are amazing.

I bet he would've been drafted had he gone to an FSU, Wisconsin, or another better known program. He went to Duke...a basketball school that just so happens to have a very respectable football program. 

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48 minutes ago, Joe said:

I bet he would've been drafted had he gone to an FSU, Wisconsin, or another better known program. He went to Duke...a basketball school that just so happens to have a very respectable football program. 

Yep... If he was a Badger, he would have gotten some love.

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Bored again! xD

I decided to create a spreadsheet of OL measurements under Shanahan with the Falcons and 49ers, LaFleur with the Titans and Packers, I also threw in McCarthy's OL just for the sake of comparison.

I can sort the results from A to Z or Z to A. I can also filter it too. By doing so I spotted some notable trends.

  • When I sorted by height LaFleur's offensive linemen were often the tallest, in the 6'5" to 6'7" range. Shanahan did the same but was more heavily focused on the 6'5" range, Unsurprisingly the majority of McCarthy's OL were all found at the bottom half of the list with the many under 6'4".
     
  • When I sorted by weight I expected the results to be all over the place. Instead there was a clear pattern. The majority of LaFleur and Shanahan OL were under 310lbs, The majority of McCarthy's OL were towards the heavier side.
     
  • With the 40 times, some of the very quickest guys were from Shanahan and LaFleur offensive lines but McCarthy also put a premium on speed but just not on the extreme side of things. Otherwise all of them made a point to bring in OL who could run under 5.25s.
     
  • The bench was very interesting. The Packers under McCarthy clearly prioritised OL who could lift in the 28+ range. A complete contrast with Shanahan who didn't mind bringing in guys who lift in the low 20s. LaFleur seems to have compromised with many of his OL hitting above 25.
     
  • The vert is very important to Shanahan and LaFleur, they like guys who can hit 30"+. McCarthy on the other hand was happy to have his OL hitting 25" at least.
     
  • Whilst with the Falcons the 3-Cone was important for Shanahan with times in the 7.30s but he seems to have relaxed on this for the 49ers. McCarthy was quite consistent between 7.40 - 7.55s range but with the odd exceptions. There's no real pattern to be gleaned with LaFleur's OL, some are very agile and some are not.

So to recap:

Shanahan's and LaFleur's OL has to be at least 6'5" tall and on the light side. An excellent 40, good agility and the vert is a priority.

McCarthy OL has to be 6'4" at most and carrying a little extra weight. They do need to be quick, have adequate agility but most importantly they need to be strong.

I think I should've incorporated arm lengths into the measurements, maybe I will do that later. It would not surprise me if LaFleur/Shanahan's OL had longer arms than McCarthy's OL. Generally speaking the taller the player the longer their arms. Might even do hand sizes too.

 

Anyway Lucas Patrick is pretty much middling athletically. I'm not sure why his RAS score is so good. Statistically all around he is quite decent but nothing pops out as elite. He's a prototypical McCarthy's OL in every way. Elgton Jenkins, Corey Linsley and Jon Runyan all has far superior numbers. 

Agility-wise our right hand side of the line has taken a big hit with Wagner and Turner with cones in the low 7.90s range. Hopefully Runyan can land the RT spot - he's superior athletically to both Bakhtiari and Bulaga.

We have an interesting prospect who ticks many boxes for LaFleur. Cody Conway. His name kept popping up when i was sorting through the categories. He was an UDFA for the Titans last year before we picked him up off the street during the season. He played left tackle for Syracuse.

The Packers is a much bigger team nowadays. The OL is bigger, our recievers is bigger and our pass rushers is bigger too.

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On 6/6/2020 at 3:38 AM, Donzo said:

 

I had no idea Patrick had this type of RAS... Those 10 & 20 yard splits are amazing.

So..no knock against Lucas here, I do like him.

But when I look at RAS scores, I do take them with a grain of salt as it evaluated the athletic potential and not the ability to actually play.

Reminds me of a joke.....

Scientists got together one day and wanted to create the perfect fish.  One that was beautiful, great tasting and an unreal fight.

They chose the coho for it's beauty.  Gorgeous silver with spots of color all over it.  Not really another fish can match it's beauty.

They chose walleye for it's taste.  Debate all you want, but walleye is simply delicious and can be prepared many different ways.

They chose a musky for it's fight.  It's unreal.  Strong head shakes, can fly out of the water, great runs...etc.

They named it Co(coho) Wal (walleye) Ski (muskie).  Cowalski.

Now if they can just teach it to swim......

Can't help but think if Spriggs isn't a Cowalski.  Everything adds up, he just can't play football.

Edited by vegas492
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RAS has running speed as such an important component.  Not sure how relevant that is for OL, whose ability to run straight-line 40-, 20- or 10-yard sprints is something they almost never actually do, and is only indirectly related to things that actually matter. 

Patrick differs from Spriggs because he was already at 313 in those RAS measurements.  I still think that Spriggs had all these positive athleticism measurables because he was an understrength guy when the combine happened; and once he built up NFL strength, he outgrew the quickness that made him attractive in the first place.    

The other thing with OL, I think, is that often good natural bend, pad-level, and a good "bubble" does not necessarily jive with good combine numbers.  Bubble-pad-level guys may be well-configured for actual football-blocking; but are they well-configured for vertical jumping and broad jump?  Pad-level big-bubble guys might be well-configured for leverage, but is that the configuration that's ideal for running sprints?   

So I guess I just kinda wonder how much correlation there is, or cause-and-effect there is if any, between physical attributes that lead to good RAS scores and physical attributes that lead to good NFL o-line play?  I'm sure smarter guys than me have analyzed this and thought this out, the question certainly can't be new.  

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On 6/7/2020 at 2:30 PM, Chili said:

Hopefully Runyan can land the RT spot - he's superior athletically to both Bakhtiari and Bulaga.

Loved the Runyan pick, but he's a LG all day. I'd love to see him get a shot at RT, but he was selected to essentially be a mauler in the run game. I think if you saw him at RT, it would be in obvious run packages TBH. Note the last line of the "Pros" section of the scouting report below.

https://thedraftnetwork.com/player/jon-runyan/7WeyFkoQpp

Zierlein had similar comments though not as damaging as Marino's IMO.

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/jon-runyan/32195255-4e66-5243-5999-ba8f8f093175

 

Bottom line: Runyan could probably get you through a game at RT, and may eventually wind up back at RT down the road if he can find some more athleticism. I suspect that he's yet another one of these Michigan players with a ton of talent, but little coaching and development.

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1 hour ago, Joe said:

Loved the Runyan pick, but he's a LG all day.

 

Bottom line: Runyan could probably get you through a game at RT, and may eventually wind up back at RT down the road if he can find some more athleticism. I suspect that he's yet another one of these Michigan players with a ton of talent, but little coaching and development.

I too see LG as Runyan's best fit.  I hope for RT, but realistically, he could be a very good LG.

Which means in time, Jenkins can be moved to somewhere else on the line.  Easily.

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2 hours ago, Joe said:

I suspect that he's yet another one of these Michigan players with a ton of talent, but little coaching and development.

Was that SF team just ridiculously more talented than their opponents? Harbaugh took them to the Super Bowl, including 3 consecutive NFCC games with Alex Smith and Colin Kaepernick at QB.  He is seemingly unable to elevate any of the players at U of M, or the school, but how do we explain the success in the NFL?  Obviously, Aldon Smith is a superior specimen ;)  but that is one lonely guy to carry the load.  

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5 minutes ago, ThatJerkDave said:

Was that SF team just ridiculously more talented than their opponents? Harbaugh took them to the Super Bowl, including 3 consecutive NFCC games with Alex Smith and Colin Kaepernick at QB.  He is seemingly unable to elevate any of the players at U of M, or the school, but how do we explain the success in the NFL?  Obviously, Aldon Smith is a superior specimen ;)  but that is one lonely guy to carry the load.  

Harbaugh was at one point the smartest X's and O's man alive. 

He's not a great developmental coach. 

When he had a room full of finished products, everything was great.

When he has a room full of moldable clay, we've seen some of the struggles. 

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1 hour ago, vegas492 said:

I too see LG as Runyan's best fit.  I hope for RT, but realistically, he could be a very good LG.

Which means in time, Jenkins can be moved to somewhere else on the line.  Easily.

Its a mirror. I imagine he'll be cross trained as a rookie and settle in wherever they see something. If they like how bakh and elgton work together idk why youd switch that up.

I dont really care who, but someone has to push Rick. Throw anyone with a pulse behind him to see what we got 

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Happy Bakh Day ( 6/9)

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2020/06/09/highlights-from-packers-lt-david-bakhtiaris-conference-call/

 

usatsi_13177521.jpg?w=1000&h=600&crop=1

 

On false start penalties early in the season: “Comes down to thinking more about the concepts. Also just being new to a bunch of new things going on. Taking my thought process away from the cadence. I got that ironed out.”

On Year 2 jump on offense: “I do expect a jump. For me, in the first year, I need to understand what I’m doing at all times. Now, I completely understand my job responsibility and now I can really take on the entire concept of the play, what is Aaron thinking, what are the adjustments, I can take on more of that responsibility. So the game can slow down further. I can be more knowledgeable and I can be more effective. The more I understood it, the more I comprehended it, I was able to be more effective in the system, I’d expect that across the board with my teammates. When you’re more comfortable in a system, when you think less, you’re playing faster.”

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6 hours ago, Joe said:

Loved the Runyan pick, but he's a LG all day. I'd love to see him get a shot at RT, but he was selected to essentially be a mauler in the run game. I think if you saw him at RT, it would be in obvious run packages TBH. Note the last line of the "Pros" section of the scouting report below.

https://thedraftnetwork.com/player/jon-runyan/7WeyFkoQpp

Zierlein had similar comments though not as damaging as Marino's IMO.

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/jon-runyan/32195255-4e66-5243-5999-ba8f8f093175

 

Bottom line: Runyan could probably get you through a game at RT, and may eventually wind up back at RT down the road if he can find some more athleticism. I suspect that he's yet another one of these Michigan players with a ton of talent, but little coaching and development.

I've seen this type of argument before. I've learned not to buy it so easily anymore.

Take Bulaga for example, all through the draft process alot of draftniks pigeonholed him as a guard at the next level. Many agreed that he would be a good tackle but a world class guard in the NFL. They knocked him for his arm length which further validated their observations and guess what... he ended up being a world class tackle after all.

https://www.espn.com/blog/nfcnorth/post/_/id/12020/daily-mailbag-the-insanity-of-short-arms

Bakthari had similar knocks, not for his arm length but due to the fact he was a bit undersized for a tackle. Draft reports had him projected as a guard at the next level. In fact I recall there was even chatter of him being a potential centre. He went straight to LT after Bulaga got injured in preseason and he never looked back. 

https://web.archive.org/web/20130430181752/http://www.nfl.com/draft/2013/profiles/david-bakhtiari?id=2540183

https://web.archive.org/web/20130311104929/http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1665265/david-bakhtiari

https://www.milehighreport.com/2013/2/28/4040626/2013-nfl-draft-prospects-david-bakhtiari-scouting-profile-denver-broncos

Now these draft reports are kinda doing the same thing again for Runyan. It seems if you don't tick all the boxes perfectly then you're automatically labelled "Guard" and that's probably what's happened here. 

He played LT for Michigan and has faced the likes of Chase Young and holding his own.  Athletically he tested better than Bakhtiari and Bulaga. There's absolutely no reason why he cannot play tackle in the NFL. If Bakhtiari signs a new contract then that's LT, LG and C locked up. Turner contract probably has him locked in at RG for the time being and that only leaves one potential opening at RT. If he wants to be a starter right away then its's likely he's gonna have to play tackle.

I will admit just looking at him he physically looks more of a guard than a tackle but we shouldn't write off his ability to play tackle in the NFL especially after going through the same thing with Bakhtiari and Bulaga in the past.

Edited by Chili
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51 minutes ago, Chili said:

I've seen this type of argument before. I've learned not to buy it so easily anymore.

Take Bulaga for example, all through the draft process alot of draftniks pigeonholed him as a guard at the next level. Many agreed that he would be a good tackle but a world class guard in the NFL. They knocked him for his arm length which further validated their observations and guess what... he ended up being a world class tackle after all.

https://www.espn.com/blog/nfcnorth/post/_/id/12020/daily-mailbag-the-insanity-of-short-arms

Bakthari had similar knocks, not for his arm length but due to the fact he was a bit undersized for a tackle. Draft reports had him projected as a guard at the next level. In fact I recall there was even chatter of him being a potential centre. He went straight to LT after Bulaga got injured in preseason and he never looked back. 

https://web.archive.org/web/20130430181752/http://www.nfl.com/draft/2013/profiles/david-bakhtiari?id=2540183

https://web.archive.org/web/20130311104929/http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1665265/david-bakhtiari

https://www.milehighreport.com/2013/2/28/4040626/2013-nfl-draft-prospects-david-bakhtiari-scouting-profile-denver-broncos

Now these draft reports are kinda doing the same thing again for Runyan. It seems if you don't tick all the boxes perfectly then you're automatically labelled "Guard" and that's probably what's happened here. 

He played LT for Michigan and has faced the likes of Chase Young and holding his own.  Athletically he tested better than Bakhtiari and Bulaga. There's absolutely no reason why he cannot play tackle in the NFL. If Bakhtiari signs a new contract then that's LT, LG and C locked up. Turner contract probably has him locked in at RG for the time being and that only leaves one potential opening at RT. If he wants to be a starter right away then its's likely he's gonna have to play tackle.

I will admit just looking at him he physically looks more of a guard than a tackle but we shouldn't write off his ability to play tackle in the NFL especially after going through the same thing with Bakhtiari and Bulaga in the past.

There's the fact he's not very good?

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1 hour ago, Packerraymond said:

You've judged that off of which one of his NFL snaps?

Watch him in pass pro and tell me he doesn't have busted hands. 

Now if he figures out what the things attached to his wrists are, you might have a player because the gym athleticism is there.

But a 6th round SR5, from a huge school, who's dad was a pro at the spot, with glaring technical deficiencies doesn't seem like a great bet to figure things out. 

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