ESPN Article: Amendola and Flowers laud Matt Patricia's tone

[LionArkie]

50 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

A win percentage of .563 would put him top 50 all time in coaches win percentage and higher if you take out the guys in the 1950s and earlier.  Its hard to win in this league and he constantly had us as a winner.  And the wording and direction used at that time was to replace him to get over the hump because just making the playoffs isnt good enough.  Since then we have won 8 games. 

 

I feel like this kind of gives him way more credit than what it was.  I mean, yes the numbers support the claim, but after he was fired, no one was knocking down his door as a top 50 coach of all time.

• First Year 11-5
• 2nd year 7-9, with 7 losses in the first 8 games
• 3rd year 9-7, lost final 3 games
• 3rd year 9-7, 3-3 down the stretch and some sketchy play management calls in key situations.

He was incredibly average, at best, albeit much better than Patricia record wise.  He could have possibly been the next Wayne Fontes in Detroit. I felt like the further away from Schwartz's team he got, the worse he would do.  He has always been an "almost good enough" coach. His teams weren't tough, they had no resiliency, and he managed it terribly. Remember 9 men on the field for a key 3rd down stop?

I will always respect Caldwell as being a fantastic human being, or so it is reported, but as a coach, I'll pass.

[Sllim Pickens]

44 minutes ago, LionArkie said:

I feel like this kind of gives him way more credit than what it was.  I mean, yes the numbers support the claim, but after he was fired, no one was knocking down his door as a top 50 coach of all time.

• First Year 11-5
• 2nd year 7-9, with 7 losses in the first 8 games
• 3rd year 9-7, lost final 3 games
• 3rd year 9-7, 3-3 down the stretch and some sketchy play management calls in key situations.

He was incredibly average, at best, albeit much better than Patricia record wise.  He could have possibly been the next Wayne Fontes in Detroit. I felt like the further away from Schwartz's team he got, the worse he would do.  He has always been an "almost good enough" coach. His teams weren't tough, they had no resiliency, and he managed it terribly. Remember 9 men on the field for a key 3rd down stop?

I will always respect Caldwell as being a fantastic human being, or so it is reported, but as a coach, I'll pass.

I agree, was just putting it into perspective.  He had his flaws, but his flaws werent that he could coach a 3-13 team to 9-7, it was that he led a team to 9-7 that had 11/12 win potential if he made some of the right moves.  Which is also what Quinn was saying when he fired him and brought in Patricia to get over the hump.  And then it turned into a complete rebuild.  

[nagahide13]

Agreed. We got worse and we weren't "rebuilding" at the time. We only started using that term once the losses began to flow and respected players started getting jettisoned for various reasons. I don't think Patricia was the right hire whatsoever. I do, however, think he has a lot of potential as a coach. Now that we're in this position I would like to see it through.

[LionArkie]

19 hours ago, nagahide13 said:

Agreed. We got worse and we weren't "rebuilding" at the time. We only started using that term once the losses began to flow and respected players started getting jettisoned for various reasons. I don't think Patricia was the right hire whatsoever. I do, however, think he has a lot of potential as a coach. Now that we're in this position I would like to see it through.

This is exactly my sentiment as well.

[Sllim Pickens]

20 hours ago, nagahide13 said:

Agreed. We got worse and we weren't "rebuilding" at the time. We only started using that term once the losses began to flow and respected players started getting jettisoned for various reasons. I don't think Patricia was the right hire whatsoever. I do, however, think he has a lot of potential as a coach. Now that we're in this position I would like to see it through.

I'm good seeing another year of it.  But not giving him more time to figure things out beyond that.  He had a good roster when he took over.  Not great but good.  The offense is ready to take off, his D needs to step up.  I dont think he is the right guy still, but will give him this year.  If he still cant win with a healthy Stafford and the pieces his buddy put into place for him, they can both be gone. 

[LionArkie]

42 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

I'm good seeing another year of it.  But not giving him more time to figure things out beyond that.  He had a good roster when he took over.  Not great but good.  The offense is ready to take off, his D needs to step up.  I dont think he is the right guy still, but will give him this year.  If he still cant win with a healthy Stafford and the pieces his buddy put into place for him, they can both be gone. 

This probably has been asked before, but what record would you be willing to accept this year as to give him his 4th year as a Lions coach? Are there any conditions where you would allow less wins (example: Stafford gets injured and misses half the season)? Is this a playoffs or bust year for you?

[Karnage84]

17 minutes ago, LionArkie said:

This probably has been asked before, but what record would you be willing to accept this year as to give him his 4th year as a Lions coach? Are there any conditions where you would allow less wins (example: Stafford gets injured and misses half the season)? Is this a playoffs or bust year for you?

I know this was intended for Sllim but I figured to respond as well. 

I'm not "playoffs or bust" but I am knocking on the door of playoffs or bust. If they go 9-7 and get squeezed out by a 10-6 Packers or Vikings team, then I would look at that as a big step forward. If they go 7-6 and Stafford gets hurt later down the stretch (or early on and they still play winning football) taking them out of that 9-7 or 10-6 range, then I would look at it as "we need to look to add another QB and possibly move on from Stafford" but not necessarily Quinn/Patricia. 

If Stafford is healthy, the offense is dynamic and the defense craps the bed again and they go 7-6 or worse then it is probably time to end the experiment and add the pieces to rebuild under a new regime. Patricia is a defensive coach and he has brought in enough of his own guys to run that system. So if he can't get things turned around despite having a dynamic offense and a healthy Stafford, it's just not going to happen under him. 

[Sllim Pickens]

22 minutes ago, LionArkie said:

This probably has been asked before, but what record would you be willing to accept this year as to give him his 4th year as a Lions coach? Are there any conditions where you would allow less wins (example: Stafford gets injured and misses half the season)? Is this a playoffs or bust year for you?

If Stafford gets hurt and misses half of the season I would give some leeway, but would also depend on how others progressed.  If our defense puts up another all-time bad season like last year, then no, I am ok moving on from him and Quinn as that is their specialty.  I am expecting a playoff appearance for them to stay.  If we make slight improvements and end up at 7-9, thats not good enough for me.  They have had plenty of time to develop and sign players for their system and it would mean that either they cant evaluate talent or they cant develop talent.  I go back to the list of successful coaches, and even those on bad teams that turn their team around within the first three years.  Even with injuries or sub par QB play and turning to Ryan Tannehill, good coaches find a way to win.  Coaches that need to keep learning on the job never figure it out and lose the locker room.  If Patricia is not successful next year, he never will as a Lion.  He might as the coach elsewhere after more seasoning, but it wont be here and it wont be right away.  

[LionArkie]

For me, 7-9 is the lowest I will go with the idea there were a couple of really tough losses to playoff caliber teams. If they look really good at 7-9 and have a few bad breaks, I'd let it go one more year as it would appear they are coming around.

If we beat playoff teams and lose to basement dwellers, and we miss the playoffs at 9-7, especially if those losses to said basement dwellers are at the end of the year.  I'm out. They can all go.

My expectation for the year is MP and BQ are both fired with the chief reason being the right side of the OL not keeping Stafford up and too much reliance on rookies. I predict a 6-10 season with a hot start to get us all excited, and end with a very Lionesque let down. If I'm wrong...please point out this post and make fun of me! I really want to be wrong.

[Nnivolcm]

2 hours ago, Karnage84 said:

I know this was intended for Sllim but I figured to respond as well. 

I'm not "playoffs or bust" but I am knocking on the door of playoffs or bust. If they go 9-7 and get squeezed out by a 10-6 Packers or Vikings team, then I would look at that as a big step forward. If they go 7-6 and Stafford gets hurt later down the stretch (or early on and they still play winning football) taking them out of that 9-7 or 10-6 range, then I would look at it as "we need to look to add another QB and possibly move on from Stafford" but not necessarily Quinn/Patricia. 

If Stafford is healthy, the offense is dynamic and the defense craps the bed again and they go 7-6 or worse then it is probably time to end the experiment and add the pieces to rebuild under a new regime. Patricia is a defensive coach and he has brought in enough of his own guys to run that system. So if he can't get things turned around despite having a dynamic offense and a healthy Stafford, it's just not going to happen under him. 

That first scenario is pretty close to identical to BQ's "not good enough" scenario that led to Caldwell being fired after the 2017 season. 

If Stafford gets hurt again I think it matters how he gets hurt. If it's a freak injury, hard to blame them for that beyond not having an adequate replacement in place. However, if Stafford is once again pressured on every drop back and getting hit constantly, I think holding BQ and MP accountable for not fixing the OL or scheming to hide their deficiencies would be the right move. 

I think the Ford's public statement about their job security was ambiguous enough I could see them kept after pretty much anything but a winless season, especially with a "pandemic" excuse built into 2020.  

[LionArkie]

49 minutes ago, Nnivolcm said:

That first scenario is pretty close to identical to BQ's "not good enough" scenario that led to Caldwell being fired after the 2017 season. 

If Stafford gets hurt again I think it matters how he gets hurt. If it's a freak injury, hard to blame them for that beyond not having an adequate replacement in place. However, if Stafford is once again pressured on every drop back and getting hit constantly, I think holding BQ and MP accountable for not fixing the OL or scheming to hide their deficiencies would be the right move. 

I think the Ford's public statement about their job security was ambiguous enough I could see them kept after pretty much anything but a winless season, especially with a "pandemic" excuse built into 2020.  

I agree with all of this.  I think the bolded is very likely to happen. However, this is where I would give the daughter the benefit of the doubt (although i have no reason to do so) and hope she would do things differently than her parents did.  A man cat at least dream.

[diehardlionfan]

On 6/26/2020 at 2:19 PM, LionArkie said:

This probably has been asked before, but what record would you be willing to accept this year as to give him his 4th year as a Lions coach? Are there any conditions where you would allow less wins (example: Stafford gets injured and misses half the season)? Is this a playoffs or bust year for you?

10-6. No excuses.

If not Quinn and Patricia get canned, Stafford gets traded and the new regime starts from scratch, again.

If Stafford gets injured again, to bad. Injuries happen. Other teams have lost their starter and won football games. Its a risk that can be mitigated.

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

2 minutes ago, diehardlionfan said:

10-6. No excuses.

If not Quinn and Patricia get canned, Stafford gets traded and the new regime starts from scratch, again.

If Stafford gets injured again, to bad. Injuries happen. Other teams have lost their starter and won football games. Its a risk that can be mitigated.

I like the hard line.

Do you also feel that, if they win 10 games, it's a successful season regardless of other factors?

[diehardlionfan]

2 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

I like the hard line.

Do you also feel that, if they win 10 games, it's a successful season regardless of other factors?

Yes, I do. If they win 10 games and suffer a playoff defeat I’m still satisfied. If they win 10 and miss the playoffs I’m okay with that as well.

The key is a winning culture and getting to the playoffs consistently so the players gain the experience and learn how to win in the post season.

At this point win, they stay, lose they go. Quinn has had enough time to create a winning roster. Patricia is no longer a rookie coach.

Simply put......time to put up or shut up. 🤠

P.S......YOU, stay safe!

 

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

5 minutes ago, diehardlionfan said:

Yes, I do. If they win 10 games and suffer a playoff defeat I’m still satisfied. If they win 10 and miss the playoffs I’m okay with that as well.

The key is a winning culture and getting to the playoffs consistently so the players gain the experience and learn how to win in the post season.

At this point win, they stay, lose they go. Quinn has had enough time to create a winning roster. Patricia is no longer a rookie coach.

Simply put......time to put up or shut up. 🤠

P.S......YOU, stay safe!

 

I love it. It's time for Patricia to show that the years of 'building' actually created something. Daniels removes a Stafford injury as an excuse. Go win.

(Thanks. I'm working on moving the family to the U.P. and in the process of getting a local job in a beautiful, safe area. I gotta focus on raising these young ones.)