Which of these would be the most controversial Hall of Fame inclusion?

[SaveOurSonics]

5 minutes ago, kwolf68 said:

I know a large reason Frank Gore is a probable Hall of Famer is the fact he had incredible durability that allowed him to amass stats. I honestly don't think you can hold that against him. In other words, durability (maybe even a little bit of luck if you will) DOES play a role in these players making the Hall of Fame.

There seems to be a line drawn for great players who didn't have the durability to amass HoF worthy stats from getting in. Should there not be a line in the sand for players who amass stats due to durability but are never great?  

[SalvadorsDeli]

1 hour ago, RandyMossIsBoss said:

Rivers. People care more about QBs, and remember their careers the most. A QB with as little postseason success as Rivers getting in would make for a lot of debates. I feel people are 50/50 on whether he deserves it, but almost nobody expects him to make it, so it'd be a shocker.

Him and Eli have been linked going back to the draft day trade so I think in a fitting way Rivers will end up getting in as a correcting measure after there's backlash to Eli being inducted. He's basically the inverse of Eli - gaudy and consistent regular season success with basically nothing to show for it in the playoffs. After everyone gets mad about Eli getting in just based on fame and rings I bet there will be some momentum around Rivers getting in for being a generally superior player to him without the gaudy accolades. 

[kwolf68]

5 minutes ago, SaveOurSonics said:

There seems to be a line drawn for great players who didn't have the durability to amass HoF worthy stats from getting in. Should there not be a line in the sand for players who amass stats due to durability but are never great?  

Great question. Honestly, don't know how to respond to it. I guess the longer you play the less you need to do from year to year. So yea I guess there is an extreme. Say a guy plays 20 years and averages 700 yards a year he now has 14,000 yards. So basically he could rush for less than 50 yards a game and still get to 14K due to insane longevity. Just dunno. 

[DannyB]

17 minutes ago, Starless said:

Define "not-great"

A guy who consistently produced at a Pro-Bowl level well into his 30s as a RB doesn't really match my definition, even if he was outpaced by some of his peers. 

Okay I'll reply with words this time.

What does pro bowl level mean? His last Pro Bowl -- which had long meant NOTHING by that point -- was in his age 29 season. He was 9th in the league in rushing, and probably would've been passed by Reggie Bush and DeMarco Murray if they had played 16 games instead of 14 (and even with 14 games, they passed Gore in rushing + receiving). To me, that is NOT a great season.

In his 30s, he would reach 1,100 yards one time, and 1,000 yards another time, good for 9th in the league and 12th in the league, respectively. If you have a 24-25 year old running back who is putting up that production, you are probably thinking you need a new feature back. So while I think it's somehow impressive to be doing that in your 30s, I don't grade on enough of a curve to then think that means HoF-worthy

[minutemancl]

7 minutes ago, BaltimoreTerp said:

Him and Eli have been linked going back to the draft day trade so I think in a fitting way Rivers will end up getting in as a correcting measure after there's backlash to Eli being inducted. He's basically the inverse of Eli - gaudy and consistent regular season success with basically nothing to show for it in the playoffs. After everyone gets mad about Eli getting in just based on fame and rings I bet there will be some momentum around Rivers getting in for being a generally superior player to him without the gaudy accolades. 

The "correcting measure" to Eli getting in will be a less-deserving player getting in?

[DannyB]

16 minutes ago, BaltimoreTerp said:

Him and Eli have been linked going back to the draft day trade so I think in a fitting way Rivers will end up getting in as a correcting measure after there's backlash to Eli being inducted. He's basically the inverse of Eli - gaudy and consistent regular season success with basically nothing to show for it in the playoffs. After everyone gets mad about Eli getting in just based on fame and rings I bet there will be some momentum around Rivers getting in for being a generally superior player to him without the gaudy accolades. 

I understand this in concept, but the problem is that, while Rivers definitely has better stats than Eli, they're less impressive when compared to his peers.

It's one thing if the first 5-7 years of the Manning/Brady dichotomy held true: One put up monster numbers and regular season accolades, the other won championship after championship. As their careers matured, of course, Peyton would shart his way into a couple rings, while Brady would show that he can hang numbers and earn MVPs as well.

But in the Eli example, Rivers has consistently been "out-stated" by Manning, Brees, and Rodgers

[SaveOurSonics]

19 minutes ago, minutemancl said:

The "correcting measure" to Eli getting in will be a less-deserving player getting in?

Take out 8 quarters of football and Rivers has twice as many Pro Bowls (not the best measuring stick, sure, but still somewhat of an indicator of dominance at your position) and is top 10 in career passer rating, vs Eli who is tied for 45th with Joe Flacco. 

He also has more division titles, a top 10 YPA (Eli is 87th), and a far higher TD%.

Of the top 30 QBs all-time by sheer volume of wins, Eli is the ONLY one who did not surpass a career Win% of greater than .500. 

There's no question who the better NFL QB was. 

Edited May 22, 2020 by SaveOurSonics

[Apparition]

With all the Frank Gore talk, I'm kind of shocked nobody's voted for Reggie Wayne, since he was basically Gore's WR equivalent. 

[DannyB]

39 minutes ago, SaveOurSonics said:

There seems to be a line drawn for great players who didn't have the durability to amass HoF worthy stats from getting in. Should there not be a line in the sand for players who amass stats due to durability but are never great?  

An exercise that demonstrates why I don't think Gore should make it...

If I was ranking the best seasons between Ahman Green and Frank Gore, 4 of the top 5 would come from Ahman, including the number 1 spot. And I definitely don't think Ahman Green deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.

[DannyB]

3 minutes ago, Starless said:

With all the Frank Gore talk, I'm kind of shocked nobody's voted for Reggie Wayne, since he was basically Gore's WR equivalent. 

Nah. Reggie Wayne had SEVERAL better WR seasons than Gore had RB seasons, including more really good seasons post-age-30 than Gore.

The main knock on Wayne, fair or not, is that Peyton was throwing him the ball, and for a good portion of it, Marvin Harrison was lining up on the other end of the line of scrimmage.

[Apparition]

1 minute ago, DannyB said:

Nah. Reggie Wayne had SEVERAL better WR seasons than Gore had RB seasons, including more really good seasons post-age-30 than Gore.

Wayne: 4 seasons in top-10 in receptions; 7 seasons in top-10 in receiving yards; 4 seasons in top-10 in TDs

Gore: 8 seasons in top-10 in touches; 6 seasons in top-10 in rushing yards; 2 seasons in top-10 in TDs

doesn't seem like that big a gap.

[DannyB]

16 minutes ago, Starless said:

Wayne: 4 seasons in top-10 in receptions; 7 seasons in top-10 in receiving yards; 4 seasons in top-10 in TDs

Gore: 8 seasons in top-10 in touches; 6 seasons in top-10 in rushing yards; 2 seasons in top-10 in TDs

doesn't seem like that big a gap.

Oh man, you're so wrong, and I can't wait until I can focus more on a rebuttal! Once I'm done with yet another Zoom meet

I'm not (just) being an a-hole, I love debating this stuff!

[Ray Reed]

Considering before this thread i’ve legit never heard Aqib Talib and Hall of Fame in the same conversation I’m going to go with him.

[DannyB]

34 minutes ago, Ray Reed said:

Considering before this thread i’ve legit never heard Aqib Talib and Hall of Fame in the same conversation I’m going to go with him.

He never once crossed my mind until I saw him here. I thought it was a joke at first, and I generally consider myself to be a fan of his game. I'm not saying definitely not, I'd have to look at how he stacks up against his contemporaries, etc, but definitely doesn't pass the immediate name test.

[thebestever6]

Talib was a winner man just a tenacious dude. I feel like outside of Tampa he was always on championship teams. Left more of an imprint on the game than Revis in my opinion. Even though Revis was better