Vorsutus Posted May 30, 2020 Share Posted May 30, 2020 56 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said: Rules based basketball doesn’t actually get played until kids are 7-9, 5 is the earliest for a non rules based league. Baseball however, kids have little leagues that start as low as 3-4 years of age. Soccer with one of the easiest barriers to entry is at 3 years old along with a few others. Basketball generally requires too much coordination and cognitive understanding for rules that make the barrier of entry for a young kid too difficult. It’s much easier to say “you can’t touch the ball with your hands” than “You can’t touch the ball with your feet, but you also can’t move while holding the ball, you can move by dribbling the ball, but not after you’ve picked up the ball to hold it.” If your 5 year old cant understand dribbling then you may want to not try procreation again... All of the big sports require coordination that doesn't develop till later. That is why the lil ones play t-ball, or what ever that 3-4 year olds thing they call soccer is. Idk about hockey, I am from miami so younth hockey is an unknown to me. But coaching peewee football has to be one of the most daunting tasks in the world. I seriously rather try and herd cats during a hail storm while on fire than try and get a bunch of 5 year olds to execute a play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngusMcFife Posted May 30, 2020 Share Posted May 30, 2020 4 hours ago, diamondbull424 said: Rules based basketball doesn’t actually get played until kids are 7-9, 5 is the earliest for a non rules based league. Baseball however, kids have little leagues that start as low as 3-4 years of age. Soccer with one of the easiest barriers to entry is at 3 years old along with a few others. Basketball generally requires too much coordination and cognitive understanding for rules that make the barrier of entry for a young kid too difficult. It’s much easier to say “you can’t touch the ball with your hands” than “You can’t touch the ball with your feet, but you also can’t move while holding the ball, you can move by dribbling the ball, but not after you’ve picked up the ball to hold it.” I'm also thinking about if an alien came to earth and we had to explain a sport to him, basketball would be relatively easy. Put the ball in the hoop, stop from the other guy putting it in the hoop. Like other ball/goal sports. But yes, dribbling is a bit tricky, so it would be more complex than soccer, hockey, lacrosse, etc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diamondbull424 Posted May 30, 2020 Share Posted May 30, 2020 10 hours ago, Vorsutus said: If your 5 year old cant understand dribbling then you may want to not try procreation again... All of the big sports require coordination that doesn't develop till later. That is why the lil ones play t-ball, or what ever that 3-4 year olds thing they call soccer is. Idk about hockey, I am from miami so younth hockey is an unknown to me. But coaching peewee football has to be one of the most daunting tasks in the world. I seriously rather try and herd cats during a hail storm while on fire than try and get a bunch of 5 year olds to execute a play. 1. Perhaps insulting kids aren’t the best use of your time? 2. This isn’t MY recommendation, it’s recommended by specialists on the subject. Are you a specialist on the subject? Doesn’t seem like you are based off of your explanations. So again perhaps insulting kids isn’t the best use of your time. 3. Dribbling a basketball isn’t as easy a concept to understand for a 5 year old as you assert. If you’ve ever participated in any sort of child development/coaching, kids have a great difficult with not picking the ball up and then wanting to dribble it once again. This is a clear violation of basketball rules and thus why it’s difficult for kids to pick up. It’s not as simple as “see goal get goal”. This is why they can only get into the non-rule format. But even dribbling itself while walking/running is a much more difficult barrier to entry than simply “holding onto a football” or “kicking a ball and running to catch up with it”. Hockey (on ice) would likely be the most comparable in barrier to entry... as you have to master the concept of skating as well as then the coordination with a stick in your hand while moving the puck. However in hockey they also have off ice hockey for fundamentals with the stick... which, again, is an easier barrier to entry as its soccer with a stick in place of your feet. But on ice and with rules most experts typically place the “normal” age of entry to be somewhere closer to 7. 4. The point is that you can get 3-4 year olds involved in the actual mechanics of those other sports sooner than basketball because of the lower barrier of entry. Clearly in all the sports the rules aren’t yet introduced, generally it takes roughly 2-3 years after your “cat herding” stage before you can start to get them involved in the rules and the greater coordination for a more competitive experience. 5. I started baseball at roughly 7/8 competitively and the rules were understood my first time in practice. Many children had been playing “competitively“ since they were about 5/6 years old, which isn’t surprising. There are far more individual roles and responsibilities that are easier to coach a kid into (while the adult handles the heavy lifting of which kid to put in which role) and train as well as less rules to have to explain and memorize for a successful game to be achieved. 6. Football is largely the same as well from a barrier of entry role in terms of coaching a kid to master a singular role. Tell the kid to line up and chase the guy with the ball or tell him to run toward the goal line or to get in the way of another person, that require less juggling of coordination- for sure. However football requires FAR more technical understanding of the game that a kid does not have a grasp of... they’re just doing what they’re told to do without actually understanding what their role does to fully contribute to the whole. Thus blocking schemes have to be INCREDIBLY simplistic with kids (but can be done) and generally the game revolves mostly around just running because passing and catching a football requires a much higher coordination skillset to be successful... however a game of football can be achieved without passing the football... and thus has an easier barrier of entry for a novice. But the rules and understanding of the game far outweighs the simplicity of the initial barrier of entry. That all said I can only rank Basketball, baseball, and Football as I can take expert opinion mixed with my own anecdotal experience. 1. Football- Learning a zone blocking scheme, which hole is what, how that coordinates to the language of a play, understanding how each position moves and coordinates... then on defense the gaps, what means a blitz, what means a coverage, etc. I didn’t start football until my 10th grade year and I had experience playing Madden for years to that point... it took me something like 2-3 weeks before I started to get “somewhat comfortable” with what was all going on. Turns out I had no idea what those plays on Madden actually meant. 2. Basketball- Had experience playing NBA live since I was 6-7 years old. Took playing for a full day before I truly understood the rules of the game. But picking up a zone defense in basketball was not 6-7 year old material (luckily the 90s used less zone defense at the NBA level for rudimentary versions of that game to have). It similarly took WEEKS of practice within a motion offense to really get all the plays down and learning multiple roles within the offense without confusing it with other roles learned. But it still was not quite as complicated and jarring as my experience with football. 3. Baseball- From a skill level you could argue its supremacy. It would surely be more difficult than football from a skill level. If we’re talking from a “skills perspective only” than I would easily have baseball, hockey, soccer, and basketball far more advanced over the requirements needed in football, but in terms of the overall complexity of the game itself... football and basketball are certainly more complex sports that require far more training within the rules, plays, and team coordination. All of them have personnel complexities as well. From a barrier entry to mid level rules to the advanced understanding of the individual games... this is how I would rank it all. But if the argument is from a more complex SKILL perspective (not the difficulty of the actual game), which seems to be why some are arguing for baseball here, perhaps some notion of confusion... then baseball would be up there as the most difficult sports from a skill perspective. But the game itself can be learned within one practice of one is old enough. ... this is my last “dissertation” on this though. Seems to be too many people with too much variability in their definitions of “difficulty of the sport”. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorsutus Posted May 30, 2020 Share Posted May 30, 2020 (edited) @diamondbull424 I never insulted children. All kids will make stupid mistakes like you are talking about. But learning to dribble is not hard. That is like the people who say learning to long snap is hard. Sure not everyone can do it but it shouldn't take anyone more than a few hours to be decent at it. Also this thread is about game complexity. It is not about skill required which I will not get into with you. And it is not about difficulty of the aport whatever that even means. Jumpung hurdles in a race is difficult but in no way complex... Edited May 30, 2020 by Vorsutus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duluther Posted May 31, 2020 Author Share Posted May 31, 2020 4 hours ago, Vorsutus said: @diamondbull424 Also this thread is about game complexity. It is not about skill required which I will not get into with you. And it is not about difficulty of the aport whatever that even means. Jumpung hurdles in a race is difficult but in no way complex... When I made this thread, I had complexity of each sport’s skill in mind. I didn’t define what exactly to judge the complexity of, partly because there’s so many things to judge and I wanted each person to answer a few of them here and there. But skill is one of the things, yeah. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter2_1 Posted May 31, 2020 Share Posted May 31, 2020 On 30/05/2020 at 2:02 AM, AngusMcFife said: Moderate: ball sport with more abstract rules (baseball, cricket, tennis). I think cricket needs to be above baseball, but it certainly has to be above tennis. It has fairly similar stats to baseball, but here are the fielding (defense) positions... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjfja_fkdldjs Posted May 31, 2020 Share Posted May 31, 2020 At the deepest level, football is probably the most complex. There are so many different positions that all have their intricacies yet also have to work together. At the base level, as a spectator sport, I think baseball is the hardest to enjoy quickly (if you want to describe this as complex). Basketball/Soccer > Football > Baseball. This is primarily because the first three sports is about bring the ball to a certain place. Football is a little more complicated because of the downs system, but all three require putting the ball in a certain area. Baseball is practically the opposite where the ball is basically used to STOP scoring. Explaining a batter needs to reach home plate after rounding bases is easy. But how a batter advances between bases requires so much knowledge of the rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
y*so*blu Posted May 31, 2020 Share Posted May 31, 2020 This kind of thing is relative. To people who aren't fans of it, any sport can appear elementary yet impenetrable at the same time. I will say that as a spectator, it took me much longer to figure out football than baseball or basketball. It was 10-15 years before I could really understand, let alone appreciate what I was seeing beyond a lot of large men running into each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Slim Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 14 hours ago, Hunter2_1 said: I think cricket needs to be above baseball, but it certainly has to be above tennis. It has fairly similar stats to baseball, but here are the fielding (defense) positions... cricket is a funny one bc the things people think are complicated, aren't, and what seems uncomplicated, is. really all those fielding positions confuse people in commentary but if you're captaining a guy who's never played before then you're a dummy to tell someone "go field at backward square", just tell them "go over there" and point to where you want them now lbw laws are obviously quite complicated and so are the tactics and strategies when you get in to the nitty gritty of it but the fundamentals of the game aren't that hard; american exceptionalism and their stubbornness is what makes it seem so 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diamondbull424 Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 (edited) On 5/30/2020 at 10:14 PM, Duluther said: When I made this thread, I had complexity of each sport’s skill in mind. I didn’t define what exactly to judge the complexity of, partly because there’s so many things to judge and I wanted each person to answer a few of them here and there. But skill is one of the things, yeah. In this case with skill involved in the equation I would place Basketball as the most complex sport (of the ones you asked about). I’ll try and be more concise, but in short: 1st tier- 3 points 2nd tier- 2 points 3rd tier- 1 point 4. Soccer = 10 pts 3rd tier- Novice barrier to entry 2nd tier- Strategy/Tactics 2nd tier- Skill 3rd tier- Traits 3rd tier- Athleticism 1st tier- Top Pro League Barrier to Entry3. Baseball = 11 pts 3rd tier- Novice barrier to entry 2nd tier- Strategy/Tactics 1st tier- Skill 3rd tier- Traits 3rd tier- Athleticism 1st tier- Top Pro League Barrier to Entry 2. Football = 12 pts 2nd tier- Novice barrier to entry 1st tier- Strategy/Tactics 3rd tier- Skill 2nd tier- Traits 1st tier- Athleticism 3rd tier- Top Pro League Barrier to Entry 1. Basketball = 13 pts 2nd tier- Novice barrier to entry 2nd tier- Strategy/Tactics 3rd tier- Skill 2nd tier- Traits 1st tier- Athleticism 1st tier- Top Pro League Barrier to Entry Edited June 1, 2020 by diamondbull424 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter2_1 Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 7 hours ago, Shady Slim said: cricket is a funny one bc the things people think are complicated, aren't, and what seems uncomplicated, is. really all those fielding positions confuse people in commentary but if you're captaining a guy who's never played before then you're a dummy to tell someone "go field at backward square", just tell them "go over there" and point to where you want them now lbw laws are obviously quite complicated and so are the tactics and strategies when you get in to the nitty gritty of it but the fundamentals of the game aren't that hard; american exceptionalism and their stubbornness is what makes it seem so Oh yeah, I've been watching cricket for 15 years now, and I still don't know the fielding positions apart from slip, gully, WK and third man lol! But yeah, with LBW, I still have to process the law in my brain when a ball whacks the pads. I always forget about the laws when it's spin bowling/playing a shot outside the line etc. Definitely more complicated than most sports. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Slim Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 11 minutes ago, Hunter2_1 said: Oh yeah, I've been watching cricket for 15 years now, and I still don't know the fielding positions apart from slip, gully, WK and third man lol! But yeah, with LBW, I still have to process the law in my brain when a ball whacks the pads. I always forget about the laws when it's spin bowling/playing a shot outside the line etc. Definitely more complicated than most sports. good takes all around here - and good to know there's a fellow cricket fan on the forum, though it does make sense given you're in the UK cricket has that same aspect football does (and i am sure baseball does too tbf) in which every ball (just like a given snap in football or baseball pitch) is in and of itself a subgame decided solely by the actors involved in that play, unlike say a soccer where the majority of the game is fluid. basketball has an element of these subgame tactics too with possessions. i'd say the more stop and start a game is generally the more complex it is for live ball sports (ie, cornhole is very stop start but it's not exactly complex so that's obviously not included here) because you've got not just the macro game, but you've got the subgames. every ball, or snap, or pitch, or possession, boils down to the subgame within the game that each has its' own tactic or strategy applied. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DannyB Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 Are all of those dots people on a cricket field!? Holy bananas what in the hell is going on there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter2_1 Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 44 minutes ago, DannyB said: Are all of those dots people on a cricket field!? Holy bananas what in the hell is going on there. No they're just possible positions. 11 to a team, and the field is placed to a strategy. Like, if you placed someone at Leg Gully (see above), you'd have the bowler bowl awkward balls about shoulder height and try and get batsman to nick the ball off to that fielder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter2_1 Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 3 hours ago, Shady Slim said: good takes all around here - and good to know there's a fellow cricket fan on the forum, though it does make sense given you're in the UK cricket has that same aspect football does (and i am sure baseball does too tbf) in which every ball (just like a given snap in football or baseball pitch) is in and of itself a subgame decided solely by the actors involved in that play, unlike say a soccer where the majority of the game is fluid. basketball has an element of these subgame tactics too with possessions. i'd say the more stop and start a game is generally the more complex it is for live ball sports (ie, cornhole is very stop start but it's not exactly complex so that's obviously not included here) because you've got not just the macro game, but you've got the subgames. every ball, or snap, or pitch, or possession, boils down to the subgame within the game that each has its' own tactic or strategy applied. Completely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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