2020 Green Bay Packers Defensive Line

[craig]

17 minutes ago, MrBobGray said:

...Blake has said that basically the Smiths were just allowed to freelance, and he was told to "make them right"; that's a good job of letting your best players play, but it's not a defense.  

I think that's a large part of Pettine's logic.  Let the two good playmakers that you've got improvise,  and have LB/safeties behind them read and flow as the line and gaps reshape themselves.  

That's a different question from how the defense is structured, but I'm not sure why that isn't a good concept?  

That same logic, I think, relates to Pettine's comments on the DL.  He was NOT obsessed with gap-control, if that meant just hanging out at the LOS at your gap (or, with our DL, probably getting pushed back 2-3 yards...).  He was in favor of getting some push and penetration if possible, and if that created some deformation in the line, again the guys behind the front were expected to flow and fill.  (Again, maybe this didn't happen a lot because our DL didn't have the skills to penetrate or impose pushback.)

But conceptually I don't see why that's such a dumb idea to let the front-4-5 penetrate and improvise and make plays, while the guys behind them track what's happening and flow to fill any emerging gaps?  

Obviously that concept doesn't mean there aren't other inputs.  Preston isn't totally improvising on whether he's rushing or covering.  Z isn't totally improvising on whether he' s working from the outside or is trying to create from the inside.  

You guys are smarter than me, but I'm not sure what's wrong with the concept of freeing your best players to make plays and letting guys behind them flow accordingly.

And it's pretty much what other teams do also.  Our run plays often don't work as scripted because opposing defenders are penetrating and moving around and deforming the intended line and scripted alleys.  Jones has the freedom and quickness to then improvise and get to the holes that actually form, even if they aren't what the script anticipated.  That's why he's good.

[deathstar]

3 hours ago, MrBobGray said:

Sorry, I should have been clear; there's no reason to run the 3-3 with this personnel.  I don't have any issue with the formation as a concept, just think it's a terrible fit for the players on this team.  

 

That's just the talent showing through though.  How many of those successful rushes were just Z or Clark beating two guys, or Preston perfectly timing the snap and just running the corner like there wasn't even a tackle? I mean, if you go back and watch Z eat Minnesota alive week 16, there's nothing special about the formations or calls; hell, he got a sack on a three man pressure lined up over the center.  The lack of production from the rest of the team, when you have three guys just straight up winning like that, is a bit of a red flag; the entire rest of the DL/EDGE group combined for 4.5 sacks; Fackrell got 1 sack a year after having 10.  He played 30 snaps more than Tyler Lancaster.  Gary was 5th on the team in sacks with 2 - somehow he only got 244 snaps.  

The defense they played and the alignments they used just don't really make sense given the talent they had.  Blake has said that basically the Smiths were just allowed to freelance, and he was told to "make them right"; that's a good job of letting your best players play, but it's not a defense.  Like, there's no scheme there; relying on having more talented players than the opposition every game is how you go down 27-0 in the first half of the NFC Championship game.

I understand what you’re saying. But we’ve got 3 guys dominating in pressures, dominating in snaps, and we’re rushing 4 the vast majority of the time. It’s not necessarily a red flag to me that other people didn’t produce given those circumstances.

[Shanedorf]

Pettine manufactured sacks from a bevy of guys in 2018 - 16 different defenders recorded a sack stat  (44 total)
And Packer fans griped because none of them had double digits and it was all smoke & mirrors

In 2019 the Packers added some stud pass rushers who won their one vs one match-ups and Packer fans griped because it was concentrated among a few talented pass rushers instead of spread out like it was in 2018. Only 8 players recorded a sack in 2019 (41 total)
 

The moral of the story ?

Packer fans always gripe, so I stopped giving a **** what Packerfans think about anything   

[Joe]

5 hours ago, Shanedorf said:

Pettine manufactured sacks from a bevy of guys in 2018 - 16 different defenders recorded a sack stat  (44 total)
And Packer fans griped because none of them had double digits and it was all smoke & mirrors

In 2019 the Packers added some stud pass rushers who won their one vs one match-ups and Packer fans griped because it was concentrated among a few talented pass rushers instead of spread out like it was in 2018. Only 8 players recorded a sack in 2019 (41 total)

that's an interesting stat. Personally, i'd hope that we would be able to be respectable against the run and still get the sack numbers and improved INT's and PBU's from the secondary. I'm optimistic that we're a couple decent players away from being far better against the run than we've been but the problem is that our front office is ok to roll with limited talent in those areas...

[mikemike778]

10 hours ago, Shanedorf said:

Pettine manufactured sacks from a bevy of guys in 2018 - 16 different defenders recorded a sack stat  (44 total)
And Packer fans griped because none of them had double digits and it was all smoke & mirrors

In 2019 the Packers added some stud pass rushers who won their one vs one match-ups and Packer fans griped because it was concentrated among a few talented pass rushers instead of spread out like it was in 2018. Only 8 players recorded a sack in 2019 (41 total)
 

The moral of the story ?

Packer fans always gripe, so I stopped giving a **** what Packerfans think about anything   

Grass is always greener.  Same will apply to QB (unless Love becomes the new Mahones), fans are complaining that Rodgers is too cautious. If the new QB comes in and starts throwing interceptions, fans will complain he isn't careful enough with the football. Ultimately you can't have everything. 

[Golfman]

14 hours ago, craig said:

I think that's a large part of Pettine's logic.  Let the two good playmakers that you've got improvise,  and have LB/safeties behind them read and flow as the line and gaps reshape themselves.  

That's a different question from how the defense is structured, but I'm not sure why that isn't a good concept?  

That same logic, I think, relates to Pettine's comments on the DL.  He was NOT obsessed with gap-control, if that meant just hanging out at the LOS at your gap (or, with our DL, probably getting pushed back 2-3 yards...).  He was in favor of getting some push and penetration if possible, and if that created some deformation in the line, again the guys behind the front were expected to flow and fill.  (Again, maybe this didn't happen a lot because our DL didn't have the skills to penetrate or impose pushback.)

But conceptually I don't see why that's such a dumb idea to let the front-4-5 penetrate and improvise and make plays, while the guys behind them track what's happening and flow to fill any emerging gaps?  

Obviously that concept doesn't mean there aren't other inputs.  Preston isn't totally improvising on whether he's rushing or covering.  Z isn't totally improvising on whether he' s working from the outside or is trying to create from the inside.  

You guys are smarter than me, but I'm not sure what's wrong with the concept of freeing your best players to make plays and letting guys behind them flow accordingly.

And it's pretty much what other teams do also.  Our run plays often don't work as scripted because opposing defenders are penetrating and moving around and deforming the intended line and scripted alleys.  Jones has the freedom and quickness to then improvise and get to the holes that actually form, even if they aren't what the script anticipated.  That's why he's good.

Because it makes guys guess where they are supposed to be instead of knowing where they are supposed to be. The result is, one or more gaps wind up being exposed far too often. Evidence the two San Francisco games. 

 

[Donzo]

1 hour ago, Golfman said:

Because it makes guys guess where they are supposed to be instead of knowing where they are supposed to be. The result is, one or more gaps wind up being exposed far too often. Evidence the two San Francisco games. 

Dude, you know better than that.

The problem wasn't RBs running through gaps because Packer defenders blewup their gap ("pushback") then left their gap. That wasn't an issue against Frisco or any other team. Now, there were a few issues with the games against Minny & Philly in GB with LBs not covering a pushed back gap. Of course that's not a scheme issue, it's a responsibility issue.

In the NFCCG the main issue was not having enough defenders assigned to cover all the gaps at the LOS.

[Donzo]

Nice short video on Hester... The guy has good tape, but he's journeymen. He's doing something to get cut every year... It's odd.

The skill is there. He's stout, can move, gets low and uses his hands well. If he had Adams's snap last year that would have been a significant upgrade.

If the DL just ends up with Hester replacing Adams, Keke making some type of 2nd year jump and Clark starts and stays healthy, the DL will be OK.

 

 

[Joe]

57 minutes ago, Donzo said:

Nice short video on Hester... The guy has good tape, but he's journeymen. He's doing something to get cut every year... It's odd.

The skill is there. He's stout, can move, gets low and uses his hands well. If he had Adams's snap last year that would have been a significant upgrade.

If the DL just ends up with Hester replacing Adams, Keke making some type of 2nd year jump and Clark starts and stays healthy, the DL will be OK.

 

 

Too bad the Iggles blocked the tape.

I think we can all agree that an upgrade over Adams will significantly help the IDL, but not to the point in which we feel comfortable with our personnel. I'm wondering if Lane Taylor's restructure may be a move to go after someone.

[Donzo]

8 minutes ago, Joe said:

Too bad the Iggles blocked the tape.

I think we can all agree that an upgrade over Adams will significantly help the IDL, but not to the point in which we feel comfortable with our personnel. I'm wondering if Lane Taylor's restructure may be a move to go after someone.

Weird, it's directly from youtube. It should give you a redirect link to youtube for the video.

I'm thinking they'll add someone on D. I like one of the veteran CBs.

 

[MrBobGray]

19 hours ago, Shanedorf said:

Pettine manufactured sacks from a bevy of guys in 2018 - 16 different defenders recorded a sack stat  (44 total)
And Packer fans griped because none of them had double digits and it was all smoke & mirrors

In 2019 the Packers added some stud pass rushers who won their one vs one match-ups and Packer fans griped because it was concentrated among a few talented pass rushers instead of spread out like it was in 2018. Only 8 players recorded a sack in 2019 (41 total)
 

The moral of the story ?

Packer fans always gripe, so I stopped giving a **** what Packerfans think about anything   

Although the moral of your story is definitely correct, just want to point out something about the numbers.  In 2018 the Packers defended 527 pass attempts and recorded 44 sacks; in 2019, they defended 546 passes attempts and recorded 41 sacks.  They added three impact defenders, but sacked the QB less often than they had the year before.  Now their pressures, INTs, passer rating, everything else improved; clearly the defense was better.  But I'm not sure this was the best way to use the personnel they had, and one of my issues was that they didn't really build plays around the fact that everyone knew the defense ran through those guys.

 

[MrBobGray]

23 hours ago, craig said:

I think that's a large part of Pettine's logic.  Let the two good playmakers that you've got improvise,  and have LB/safeties behind them read and flow as the line and gaps reshape themselves.  

That's a different question from how the defense is structured, but I'm not sure why that isn't a good concept?  

That same logic, I think, relates to Pettine's comments on the DL.  He was NOT obsessed with gap-control, if that meant just hanging out at the LOS at your gap (or, with our DL, probably getting pushed back 2-3 yards...).  He was in favor of getting some push and penetration if possible, and if that created some deformation in the line, again the guys behind the front were expected to flow and fill.  (Again, maybe this didn't happen a lot because our DL didn't have the skills to penetrate or impose pushback.)

But conceptually I don't see why that's such a dumb idea to let the front-4-5 penetrate and improvise and make plays, while the guys behind them track what's happening and flow to fill any emerging gaps?  

Obviously that concept doesn't mean there aren't other inputs.  Preston isn't totally improvising on whether he's rushing or covering.  Z isn't totally improvising on whether he' s working from the outside or is trying to create from the inside.  

You guys are smarter than me, but I'm not sure what's wrong with the concept of freeing your best players to make plays and letting guys behind them flow accordingly.

And it's pretty much what other teams do also.  Our run plays often don't work as scripted because opposing defenders are penetrating and moving around and deforming the intended line and scripted alleys.  Jones has the freedom and quickness to then improvise and get to the holes that actually form, even if they aren't what the script anticipated.  That's why he's good.

My take is basically this:

Traditionally speaking, the key aspect of defense and specifically run defense is that tie goes to the defense.  On a typical run play, the defense will win simply by stalemating across the board; they don't need to win a single one on one match-up to win the down.  The offense needs to create physical space for a man to run through; if they can't create enough of a gap, the RB's only real choice is to put his head down for 1-3 yards.  This is what the core of run defense philosophy is; everyone maintains their run fits, the running back is corraled, rally to the ball and make the tackle.  The key is that because you don't need anyone to win, just everyone to not lose, you can beat a more talented group than you if everyone does their job correctly.  This is a big part of what makes Belichick defenses so hard to play against; they simply don't beat themselves, so the offense needs to win on every single down.

Now, if someone does win their 1v1, you have a chance to instead turn the play into a negative play.  If Kenny stacks and sheds his man, he can drop the RB in the backfield for a 1 yard loss instead of a 1 yard gain; however, there's a balancing act because if you beat your man but fail to make the play, you open a gap for an explosive play.  If you beat your man, but fail to make the play, now you're reliant on someone else also winning their match-up to clean up the mess.  

There's some level of this on every play in football.  The balance between knowing when there's a play to be made and when to simply do your role is a core component of high end players; think of Woodson's careful gambling or Jordy knowing when to take off on an adjustment.  The danger in building a defense around this, however, is that you've essentially turned those guys into the QBs of the defense, and not in the good way.  Now the weight of the defense is leveraged almost entirely on them making the play, because if they fail to do so now you're reliant on exactly those guys you're trying to hide making the play but now from a compromised position.  Blake took flack at times for not meeting the RB in the hole, but at times he didn't even know which hole he was supposed to fill until halfway through the play.  In other words, now Blake can't even win his match-up to make the play, because he doesn't have a match-up, he has a philosophy; wait for the match-up to literally have a head start right at him because the guard didn't even get slowed off the line.

I'm overstating this a bit, because they also ran plenty of traditional run defense; that just wasn't very good because they're bad at DT and ILB.  Not a good combo to stop the run.  But I think that Pettine's willingness to discard the central tenet of run defense (everyone gets a job, do your job and don't get beat) is a mistake.  The team gave up a lot of plays this year simply starting from a bad spot on a foundational level; I'm not sure the extra bit of pressure they got was worth it.

[VonKarman]

Perhaps it's a stupid idea, but could Griffen play as a 3-4 DE? He's still available and if he could he'd make much more sense than Snacks.

Edited May 31, 2020 by VonKarman

[TransientTexan]

20 hours ago, MrBobGray said:

On a typical run play, the defense will win simply by stalemating across the board; they don't need to win a single one on one match-up to win the down. 

sort of. kinda depends on the type of stalement. if 2 linemen are going against eachother and they both end up on the ground, the RB can move around them. DL has to not get blown off the ball *and* keep his feet. He could steamroll the OL, but if he doesn't keep his feet and just falls on top of the OL, the RB can get the edge. And even if you kept your feet, if you're caught flatfooted, it's hard to make a play on a speedy runner even if he appears to be somewhat close. He could be by you in an instant. 

[Skippy]

Does anybody think we aren't really going to sign anybody at the tackle position?