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Why did Reggie Bush Bust?

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52 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said:

So now your criticizing an offensive player for a defensive player making a great read and play on the ball because he "fumbled the ball" (and I use that loosely here)  while clearly playing within the play call and looking in the opposite direction.

The hate here is getting ludicrous.

It actually wasn't intended to be criticism, more of just a memory that suddenly popped into my head involving Bush. Great defensive play, and if anything Brees might've hung him out a little bit, but really Brown came through seemingly out of nowhere like a Mack truck.

Honestly I actually liked Reggie Bush a lot. I wish he had lived up to expectations.

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A bunch of things:

1. Judging RBs with a very strong college OL going up against bad college defenses is extremely hard. You seriously have to do everything you can to isolate the plays where the OL blocks it perfectly, where the OL blocks it alright and the RB makes a great play to find the hole, and the plays where the OL losses and the RB gets taken down. There's a tendency to judge RBs based on how many long/medium/short runs that they pull off, ignoring that it's the most dependent position in the sport. You watch the highlight videos with a more seasoned eye and in retrospect, a lot of those runs aren't special. He's hitting a hole at a full speed because no one is taking him off his line. 

Obviously all highlight videos have this to a large extent, but Bush never really learned how to make something out of nothing in college, and that's a skill that matters a ton in the NFL. Knowing when to take 2 yards and when to try and make something happen matters a lot.

2. Injuries happened. The guy was built thinner than most RBs and he took the abuse for it. He also didn't really develop the instinct to protect himself until later in his career, likely because in college he was just running by people. I once heard someone make the comment that Bush runs stylistically through the tackles the same way that he runs to the outside. That's not a recipe for a durable career. You look at the way he takes hits versus the way McCaffrey (very similar prospects coming out) takes hits, it's night and day. Bush was way more of an upright runner. McCaffrey still takes his shots, but he's not taking them in the ribs every snap.

3. Let's be real here. Bush had an attitude problem when he came into the league. He was already a massive star and didn't think he should be going through the same thing the other guys were. The famous story about Pete Carroll having it setup so that Reggie Bush would be the one to show Percy Harvin around on his recruiting visit (potentially with a bag full of cash), and then Bush not showing up at the airport, is the reason that Harvin ended up at Florida. Bush allegedly showing up at the meeting with the NCAA improper benefits investigators with a pair of hundred thousand dollar diamond studs in his ears, was another incident that kinda paint the picture. Rookies with attitudes irritate coaches quickly.

4. The Saints didn't do a great job of using his skillset by modern standards and also didn't do a good job of helping him to develop his skillset (admittedly the attitude probably didn't help). They were pretty good at the time, but Bush was too early. Additionally, NFL defenses were far more prepared to deal with the special parts of his game than college teams were. NFL LBs don't panic and take bad angles when their DL gets reached. NFL LBs were far more capable of running with him on the wheel route and were much better at recognizing it was coming. 

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12 hours ago, Nabbs4u said:

No he didn't.  You mean Sheldon Brown?

Yes. I stand corrected. 

 

If Brian Dawkins had hit him like that, he indeed wouldn't have had a career. 😉

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He's not a bust. Disappointment but not a bust, I feel like if a guy like Reggie is a bust then we're using the term way too loosely. And I say that as a Saints fan. Never once have I thought of Reggie as a bust, I wish it had turned out better here though because I love the guy.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, VanS said:

Were you in a coma those years?  Cause I don't know how anyone who watched him play those two years could say this.

As a rookie he was spectacular.  He made highlight plays and led a very bad Titans team to a respectable 8-8 record that had them on the brink of the playoffs with a huge winning streak at the end of the year.  His dramatic wins down the stretch had him on the cover of Sports Illustrated.  

Then in 2009 he took over a team that was 0-6 and had just lost 59-0 to the New England Patriots and led them to a 8-2 record down the stretch and once again almost made the playoffs.

Passing stats never defined Vince Young.  He always played better than the numbers.  And that was reflected in how much better the Titans played when he was starting versus when he wasn't. 

Were you? A large chunk of the reason the Titans did anything relevant in 2009 was because Chris Johnson slayed it and the Titans went up against a bunch of mediocre teams the 2nd half. Vince Young had little to do with that 8-2 record. I mean Kerry Collins was worse, but that's like comparing a half eaten sandwich to a 3 day old slice of pizza... 

I find it HARD to believe anyone (except you apparently) would say Vince Young had a more 'successful' career than Reggie Bush. 

Edited by NFL_Announcer
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Posted (edited)
On 6/4/2020 at 6:39 AM, DannyB said:

Yeah...isn't that what a bust is? Somebody who doesn't meet the expectations of what they were supposed to be. Everybody thought he should be the first overall pick, which couldn't have been that far off because NOLA happily scooped him up #2 overall. For being the #2 overall pick, and a SUPER hyped one at that? Yes, he was a bust.

 

Because he was a bust. Nobody is calling him a disaster, or that his career is a complete joke. But he was a bust compared to what everybody thought he could be. You don't have to be Ki-Jana Carter to be considered a bust at RB.

It's like Alex Smith. I have no idea if this is gonna be like a hot take or something, but to me it's obvious: Alex Smith was a bust. Now he eventually rounded into a serviceable quarterback, and you can explain his career trajectory any number of ways, but at the end of the day, if I'm taking a QB with the first overall pick, I'm expecting better than Alex Smith.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1607516-what-really-defines-a-nfl-draft-bust

 

"Whether it’s the result of a bad fit, poor work ethic or injury, some of the top prospects will never show their potential.But one thing should be clear: Once a player sheds the bust label, it does not get reattached. Even if he is only good for one year, at least the player showed that he can play in this league. At that point, you just change the label to something else: disappointment or one-year wonder. But at least it’s no longer the naughty “B” word."

Edited by Warhorse

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, DannyB said:

He really wasn't that good of a quarterback.

He was fun to watch, and he could make a great play here and there, but he was so inconsistent.

The Titans success in 2009 is due to having a certain running back having, oh I don't know, one of the best seasons of all-time at his position. So they had a spectacular running game, and a pretty stout defense. Once they replaced the corpse of Kerry Collins with an at least half-functional quarterback, success followed. I also think that when Vince was "on", the guys on offense really did feed off of it, and liked playing with him. That type of energy helps.

A good quarterback is one who leads his team to wins.  Vince Young did that.  Even you admit his teammates fed off his play.  That's the definition of being a great player.  When you raise the level of your teammates.

And yes CJ2K had a legendary season.  But that was in part due to Vince Young.  VY's ability to threaten the defense with his legs is what kept the weakside defenders honest in their gaps giving CJ2K more running room.  Also because the weakside end has to account for the QB keeping it on a bootleg, the offensive line has one less guy to block giving CJ2K even more running room.  Vince Young gave the Titans a similar advantage in the run game to what Lamar Jackson gives the Ravens runners today.  That's one of the most obvious advantages of having an elite athlete at the QB position.  He will indirectly help the running game simply because of the threat his legs possess if he decides to keep the football on a bootleg or in today's NFL the read option.

You can criticize Vince Young for being immature and not being a student of the game.  But you can't say he wasn't good in 2006 and 2009 when he made the Pro Bowl and won OROY.  He was good those two years.  He proved it on the field with his play.  And while the stats may not have always reflected how good he was, his win/loss record definitely did.

Edited by VanS

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, NFL_Announcer said:

Were you? A large chunk of the reason the Titans did anything relevant in 2009 was because Chris Johnson slayed it and the Titans went up against a bunch of mediocre teams the 2nd half. Vince Young had little to do with that 8-2 record. I mean Kerry Collins was worse, but that's like comparing a half eaten sandwich to a 3 day old slice of pizza... 

I find it HARD to believe anyone (except you apparently) would say Vince Young had a more 'successful' career than Reggie Bush. 

First of all, I never said Vince Young had a more successful career than Reggie Bush.  You just made that up.  I was responding to a poster who couldn't believe Vince Young made 2 Pro Bowls in 2006 and 2009 and won Offensive Rookie of the Year in 2006.

With that said, I actually lived in Nashville, TN during the 2009 season and watched every Titans game that year in its entirety (even the 59-0 slaughter at the hands of the Patriots) cause it was the local game every Sunday plus I was a Titans fan back then.  So you don't need to tell me how that season went down.  I remember it vividly.

Yes CJ2K had a phenomenal season.  But as my previous post pointed out, Vince Young had a lot to do with that rushing success.  Its the same reason the Ravens RBs had such a great season last year.  Or why Alfred Morris had such a spectacular rookie season in 2012.  When you have an elite athlete at the QB position who the backside end knows can keep the football at anytime on a bootleg, the backside defensive end has to honor that threat and can't crash in on the RB.  This makes a huge difference in the run game.  It essentially means one less man the offensive line has to account for because the QB run threat is what's keeping him honest.  And for a RB as fast as Chris Johnson it makes an even bigger difference because that slight hesistation means he can take it the distance on any play.  To not comprehend the impact a QB with Vince's skillset had on the run game is to show a lack of in-depth knowledge about the game.

Now onto the 8-2 record down the stretch which you downplayed.  Whether or not they played a weak schedule down the stretch is irrelevant.  They were 0-6 before Vince took over and just suffered arguably the most embrassing loss in NFL history against the Patriots at 59-0.  The pre-Vince Young 2009 Titans were headed for arguably one of the worst seasons in NFL history.  When that's your starting point, no schedule is "soft".   What they did next hadn't happened before in NFL history.  They went 5-0 after starting 0-6.  That is an incredible turnaround regardless of who was on the schedule.  Especially when the only major change was at the starting QB position.  This wasn't in college or some other sport where there is a huge gap in talent between teams.  NFL teams are more or less all about the same talent-wise on any given Sunday. 

You don't have to like Vince Young but you can't diminish what he did in 2006 and 2009 to turnaround the Tennessee Titans.  Both years looked like they were going to be collosal failures at the start but ended up being respectable seasons after Vince Young became the starter.  He was one of those players who contributions went beyond the stat sheet.  

Edited by VanS

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11 hours ago, DannyB said:

Remember when Sheldon Brown vaporized Reggie Bush and his entire future bloodline?

 

Flock of Eagles: Happy on Halloween at the Halfway Point ...

 

Afterwards Brown said something like, it felt like running through a paper bag or something, haha.

Perfect tackle by any standard - but would still probably draw a flag nowadays. 

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damn reggie's had some work done

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On 6/5/2020 at 3:07 AM, DannyB said:

Remember when Sheldon Brown vaporized Reggie Bush and his entire future bloodline?

 

Flock of Eagles: Happy on Halloween at the Halfway Point ...

 

Afterwards Brown said something like, it felt like running through a paper bag or something, haha.

Pretty sure the after effects of that hit is what started Kim Kardashian down her path of cycling through men like she does panties.

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Posted (edited)

Tennessee looked better under VY because Kerry Collins was ******* trash. A traffic cone would have led to more wins than that alcoholic bum.

Edited by Elky

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On 6/3/2020 at 11:25 PM, DannyB said:

He didn't have a bad career by any means. He hung around and was decently effective for awhile. I do agree he ultimately was a bust though for the #2 overall pick.

I think it's the classic case of his skillset and athleticism being so superior in college that he just blew everybody out of the water, but among the competition level in the NFL, just wasn't as far ahead of the crowd. He was still good enough to accumulate some really nice, flashy plays, but not enough to just dust everybody the way he did in college.

I hate the term "bust." He was a productive NFL player. As a #2 overall and with the hype he had coming in, sure, it was a bit of a disappointment, but 9000 total yds, a couple 1000 yd rushing seasons, just short of 500 catches, 50+ tds? That's 1st round production. 

Plus that was a garbage draft, at least as far as high first rounders go. What a bunch of stiffs. 

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