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13 hours ago, wackywabbit said:

What stands out to me is that Tampa Bay is a bad franchise that also has two super bowls in 2000s.

The Glazers are just bad at appointing people to run their sports teams from a front office perspective. Licht got a surprising amount of time and eventually made it work once we had a good coaching staff.

The culture of the last decade has been to find more novel and psychologically damaging ways to lose football games before blowing it up and starting again.

Hopefully there’s now a culture change within the organisation as people understand what it takes to win and sustain success, but we’ll see if that’s the case over the next 5 years.   I don’t think we’ll be repeating the mistakes of 2003 onwards at least.

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14 hours ago, Ray Reed said:

The only starters on the 2000 SB team from the pre-move 5-11 ‘95 Browns were RT Orlando Brown and K Matt Stover...and obviously a whole different coaching staff. 

Orlando Brown wasn't with the Ravens as his last season was in 1998 as a Raven. Went to the Browns in 1999, and then sat out three seasons due to injury. He did return to the Ravens in 2003. 

The only players I believe from the old Browns when the Ravens won the Super Bowl were defensive end Rob Burnett and kicker Matt Stover. 

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1 hour ago, TecmoSuperJoe said:

Orlando Brown wasn't with the Ravens as his last season was in 1998 as a Raven. Went to the Browns in 1999, and then sat out three seasons due to injury. He did return to the Ravens in 2003. 

The only players I believe from the old Browns when the Ravens won the Super Bowl were defensive end Rob Burnett and kicker Matt Stover. 

Forgot about that 🤦🏻‍♂️ good catch

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6 hours ago, Ray Reed said:

Bill Belichick had 1 winning season in 5 years in Cleveland. 

Saying “X guy would have had X success in X place, too” despite a myriad of other human factors is a really lazy argument imo. Things like that aren’t just transitive in sports.

Okay, sure. But BB had an entirely different staff in Cleveland than he had in New England. He had different scouts identifying players for him and different coaches working with him. He had players on the Patriots that he didn't bring in. He had an entirely different cap situation. He had different draft picks slotted in different places and different team needs to address with those picks. He had a different owner, with a different vision for how to run a franchise. He had a 4 season break from being a Head Coach to rework his philosophy, where he continued to learn under Bill Parcells. None of that is true of the team that left Cleveland for Baltimore. Every single decision being made by the Ravens was made by an owner and a VP that were going to be the owner and VP no matter where the team was located. 

What specifically did the franchise have in Baltimore that you think they wouldn't have had in Cleveland? Do you think that Ozzie would have decided not to draft Johnathan Ogden and Ray Lewis because the team was in Cleveland instead of Baltimore? Is it something else? There isn't anything obvious about what happened in Baltimore that there's any reason to believe wouldn't have happened if the team was in Cleveland, so what do you think those differences would have been?

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14 minutes ago, pwny said:

Okay, sure. But BB had an entirely different staff in Cleveland than he had in New England. He had different scouts identifying players for him and different coaches working with him. He had players on the Patriots that he didn't bring in. He had an entirely different cap situation. He had different draft picks slotted in different places and different team needs to address with those picks. He had a different owner, with a different vision for how to run a franchise. He had a 4 season break from being a Head Coach to rework his philosophy, where he continued to learn under Bill Parcells. None of that is true of the team that left Cleveland for Baltimore. Every single decision being made by the Ravens was made by an owner and a VP that were going to be the owner and VP no matter where the team was located. 

What specifically did the franchise have in Baltimore that you think they wouldn't have had in Cleveland? Do you think that Ozzie would have decided not to draft Johnathan Ogden and Ray Lewis because the team was in Cleveland instead of Baltimore? Is it something else? There isn't anything obvious about what happened in Baltimore that there's any reason to believe wouldn't have happened if the team was in Cleveland, so what do you think those differences would have been?

Your point makes sense if everything in football occurs in a vacuum without any ulterior human intricacies playing part, like pressure, internal motivations, climate/environment, etc.

The Ravens FO was split on drafting Ogden or Lawrence Phillips at 4 in 96. Modell actually wanted Philips. Obviously Ozzie chose Ogden, even though we didn’t need a LT and played him at LG for a year.

Who knows how much being a “fresh” organization in a new city (with “growth time” expected from the fan base) over an established town like Cleveland (growing impatient with the product) affected the decision of going with an OL over a flashy RB. It’s things like that you simply have no idea about or can’t quantify.

It’s the human aspect to the game and it’s odd IMO to see you arguing the importance of “nuance” in one prominent thread on this site, while practically saying “yeah same results would’ve happened in 2 entirely separate locations and coaching staffs” like these things exist in a vacuum. Sometimes it’s as simple as a change of scenery does wonders for players/organizations/etc.

Again, I think it’s a pretty weak argument, but i’m not entirely interested in debating hypotheticals from 30 years ago, so if you disagree, do you I guess.

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1 minute ago, Ray Reed said:

it’s odd IMO to see you arguing the importance of “nuance” in one prominent thread on this site, while practically saying “yeah same results would’ve happened in 2 entirely separate locations and coaching staffs”

I didn’t say that. I literally just asked “There isn't anything obvious about what happened in Baltimore that there's any reason to believe wouldn't have happened if the team was in Cleveland, so what do you think those differences would have been?”

No idea where you got this whole idea that I’m lacking nuance, I literally just asked you to explain the nuance difference because I didn’t see anything analogous to the example you set. From a person who isn’t a fan of the Ravens, every single person top to bottom that made decisions reasonably had a high chance of being the same people and as an outsider, those seem highly likely to have been likely to lead to the same decisions, as the team had the same resources and the same needs. I asked for what you thought those differences could have been, and you provided what I asked for. There was no need for the backhanded comment here. 

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2 minutes ago, pwny said:

I didn’t say that. I literally just asked “There isn't anything obvious about what happened in Baltimore that there's any reason to believe wouldn't have happened if the team was in Cleveland, so what do you think those differences would have been?”

No idea where you got this whole idea that I’m lacking nuance, I literally just asked you to explain the nuance difference because I didn’t see anything analogous to the example you set. From a person who isn’t a fan of the Ravens, every single person top to bottom that made decisions reasonably had a high chance of being the same people and as an outsider, those seem highly likely to have been likely to lead to the same decisions, as the team had the same resources and the same needs. I asked for what you thought those differences could have been, and you provided what I asked for. There was no need for the backhanded comment here. 

👍🏼 apologies on the back handed comment, believe I misread the tone of your post initially 

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