NFL teams 'done' negotiating with Jadeveon Clowney

[dll2000]

Reportedly Seahawks offered 1 year 15 million and Browns are offering 12 million per year.  

So somewhere between 12 and 15 million seems to be his market, which isn't bad really.  

He reportedly was/is seeking 20 million a year and no one is coming close to that.

Clowney under produced to his talent and hype in college and that continued in pros.  He isn't a bad player, he is good, but him not being a star shouldn't have been the massive surprise it has been and he never should have been number 1 pick.   Which is obvious now.   

At least teams learned a little bit with Rashon Gary who is a similar player, but didn't go in top 5 as his talent would seem to indicate.    HS super star recruit who never quite lived up to hype in college with production.   Also a guy who could be a good player, but isn't going to set world on fire.

[HTTRDynasty]

Sacks are such a luck-based stat, people really should stop judging players based off of them.  I saw several Seahawks games last year where Clowney was extremely close to getting a sack or a pressure, but he was double-teamed at the last second or his teammate got the sack before he could.  He's still beating the man in front of him at one of the highest rates in the league, even when double-teamed.  You can't tell me opposing offensive coordinators didn't focus on trying to limit his impact last year.  

He's not worth $20mm per year, but he's nowhere near a bust either.

 

 

[Fray32]

2 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

<A tweet that I don't want taking up space in a quote>

What's happening here? Trey Hendrickson is being double teamed among the highest % in the league?

[HTTRDynasty]

1 minute ago, Fray32 said:

What's happening here? Trey Hendrickson is being double teamed among the highest % in the league?

I believe Z. Smith has that honor.

This is based on Next Gen Stats.  The chip all players wear in their helmet used to track their movements.  It's as objective as you could possibly get.

[dll2000]

48 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

I believe Z. Smith has that honor.

This is based on Next Gen Stats.  The chip all players wear in their helmet used to track their movements.  It's as objective as you could possibly get.

I am on next gen site and don't see this stat anywhere.

[HTTRDynasty]

Just now, dll2000 said:

I am on next gen site and don't see this stat anywhere.

They don't publish it for public use in it's raw form.  Look up Seth Walder though.  He's legit.

[Uncle Buck]

4 hours ago, sdrawkcab321 said:

Sheldon wasn’t special last year. Clowney would be 2nd best. 

OK, yeah I wasn't sure.  Sheldon played for us (Vikings) a couple of years ago and he wasn't bad, but I know he's getting up there in age too.

[dll2000]

9 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

They don't publish it for public use in it's raw form.  Look up Seth Walder though.  He's legit.

Do you have access?

[HTTRDynasty]

1 minute ago, dll2000 said:

Do you have access?

No, I meant I think only NFL teams and certain ESPN and NFL Network analytics reporters have access.  

Here's an ESPN article with 2019 team and individual rankings: https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/27584726/nfl-pass-blocking-pass-rushing-rankings-2019-pbwr-prwr-leaderboard

[iknowcool]

1 hour ago, dll2000 said:

At least teams learned a little bit with Rashon Gary who is a similar player, but didn't go in top 5 as his talent would seem to indicate.    HS super star recruit who never quite lived up to hype in college with production.   Also a guy who could be a good player, but isn't going to set world on fire.

Maybe high school hype wise, but as a prospect entering the NFL, Clowney was easily better.

Clowney had an underwhelming final year at South Carolina, but he was battling injuries.  As a true freshman, he recorded 8 sacks, 12 tackles for a loss, and 5 forced fumbles.  The next year he had 23.5 tackles for a loss and 13 sacks.  Clowney was the real deal in college until that last year.  I'd say he absolutely lived up to his star recruit label in college.

Clowney hasn't lived up for the hype, but I don't think that would change anything.  If a Clowney-level prospect came along again and had that kind of production in 2 out of 3 seasons in the SEC, he'd go at worst top 5.  

[dll2000]

15 minutes ago, iknowcool said:

Maybe high school hype wise, but as a prospect entering the NFL, Clowney was easily better.

Clowney had an underwhelming final year at South Carolina, but he was battling injuries.  As a true freshman, he recorded 8 sacks, 12 tackles for a loss, and 5 forced fumbles.  The next year he had 23.5 tackles for a loss and 13 sacks.  Clowney was the real deal in college until that last year.  I'd say he absolutely lived up to his star recruit label in college.

Clowney hasn't lived up for the hype, but I don't think that would change anything.  If a Clowney-level prospect came along again and had that kind of production in 2 out of 3 seasons in the SEC, he'd go at worst top 5.  

People will always over draft potential.  

Again, Clowney was a good college player and is a good pro player, but never lived up to hype or potential at any level past high school.  

Judging by translated coach speak he wasn't particularly loved by his college coaches.  Seattle is first team to really want him back and even they aren't wiling to pay much for it.   

I would say and did say before each player's draft that he fits into underachieving category along with Robert Nkemdiche another under achieving number 1 HS recruit and first round pick (who was a bust) and, so far, Gary.   Gary is still at a stage where he can turn it around, but I would say odds are against it.

 

[iknowcool]

7 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

People will always over draft potential.  

Again, Clowney was a good college player and is a good pro player, but never lived up to hype or potential at any level past high school.  

But this flat out isn't true.  He was a great college player and one of the best defensive players in the nation.  You could argue he was flat out the best defensive player in college football in 2012.  He was an unanimous All-American, was voted as the best defensive end in the nation, and finished 6th in Heisman Trophy voting.  The only defensive player with more votes was Manti Te'o, who was not better than Clowney but had a TON of media hype on a strong Notre Dame team.  

I just don't know how you can say he didn't live up to the hype past high school.  Just because he had an underwhelming final season doesn't mean his first 2 years weren't great.  Clowney was the real deal and was drafted #1 overall, not just because of his potential, but because he produced at a high level in college.  

The reason Gary didn't go higher than he did isn't because teams "learned their lesson" from Clowney, but because Gary wasn't anywhere close to as good as Clowney was in college.  If Gary had 2 years as good as Clowney's, he would have went top five too.

[DoleINGout]

52 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

No, I meant I think only NFL teams and certain ESPN and NFL Network analytics reporters have access.  

Here's an ESPN article with 2019 team and individual rankings: https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/27584726/nfl-pass-blocking-pass-rushing-rankings-2019-pbwr-prwr-leaderboard

Interesting and unsurprising that Belichick and all Belichick disciple led teams are in the bottom ten for Team Pass Rush Win Rate.

22. New England Patriots, 40%
24. New Orleans Saints, 38%
25. Washington Redskins, 37%
26. Minnesota Vikings, 37%
27. Cincinnati Bengals, 35%
28. Houston Texans, 35%
29. Oakland Raiders, 34%
30. Denver Broncos, 33%
31. Miami Dolphins, 28%
32. Detroit Lions, 24%

[HTTRDynasty]

2 minutes ago, DoleINGout said:

Interesting and unsurprising that Belichick and all Belichick disciple led teams are in the bottom ten for Team Pass Rush Win Rate.

22. New England Patriots, 40%
24. New Orleans Saints, 38%
25. Washington Redskins, 37%
26. Minnesota Vikings, 37%
27. Cincinnati Bengals, 35%
28. Houston Texans, 35%
29. Oakland Raiders, 34%
30. Denver Broncos, 33%
31. Miami Dolphins, 28%
32. Detroit Lions, 24%

Yeah, and I think there should probably be some distinction made between teams that 1-gap vs 2-gap.  For example, the Redskins have largely played a 2-gap defense with their DL over the past few years, which is a big reason I think we rank so low in the above list.  I'm not sure what gap scheme the Vikings and Saints play, but they're also surprisingly low on this list given their 2019 EDGE personnel.

[dll2000]

41 minutes ago, iknowcool said:

But this flat out isn't true.  He was a great college player and one of the best defensive players in the nation.  You could argue he was flat out the best defensive player in college football in 2012.  He was an unanimous All-American, was voted as the best defensive end in the nation, and finished 6th in Heisman Trophy voting.  The only defensive player with more votes was Manti Te'o, who was not better than Clowney but had a TON of media hype on a strong Notre Dame team.  

I just don't know how you can say he didn't live up to the hype past high school.  Just because he had an underwhelming final season doesn't mean his first 2 years weren't great.  Clowney was the real deal and was drafted #1 overall, not just because of his potential, but because he produced at a high level in college.  

The reason Gary didn't go higher than he did isn't because teams "learned their lesson" from Clowney, but because Gary wasn't anywhere close to as good as Clowney was in college.  If Gary had 2 years as good as Clowney's, he would have went top five too.

 

He was great for a freshman in his first year, but he is one of those people that physically matured really fast which is why he was so highly rated from so young.

He was legit great his second year (but not all time great - there have been many superior seasons by edge players) and he was just bad his last year which you keep wanting to throw out the window.   It counts because it should have been his best year.   

You can say it was all injury, but it was what raised so many red flags about him.   Coaches felt he laid down if you translate coach speak.  He claimed illness multiple times.  

Nobody is saying he isn't talented, but to be an all time great it takes talent and drive and Clowney has never shown he has drive to be next level great.    

I will stick with the underachiever label for him.  For him to be an 'achiever' he should be on his way to HOF and he clearly is not, he is not even with team who drafted him number one.