Pace's Three Major Upgrades

[soulman]

With the NFL now shut down for summer vacation prior to camp let's discuss each of the players most believe are major upgrades over who they replaced.

#1 Robert Quinn in place of Leonard Floyd

#2 Tashaun Gipson in place of HaHa Clinton-Dix

#3 Jaylon Johnson in place of Prince Amukamara

I realize these are all defenders and we might also make a case for Germain Ifedi being a 4th upgrade but due to his struggles with penalties and his move from RT to RG it might be premature to see him as a major upgrade just yet whereas the other three come with Pro Bowl Pedigrees and Johnson with a mid 1st round rating but slipped to the mid second round due to injury.

Let's talk about the players themselves individually and also what you feel they can add (or subtract) from the defense as a whole.  We've talked about them before is they were signed or drafted but not in one consolidated thread with all three together.  So, how do you see each of these guys contributing in 2020 and do you see them as a clear upgrade over who they replaced.

The floor is open for discussion.

 

[The_Romen]

2 hours ago, soulman said:

#1 Robert Quinn in place of Leonard Floyd

#2 Tashaun Gipson in place of HaHa Clinton-Dix

#3 Jaylon Johnson in place of Prince Amukamara

Quinn will be an immediate and absolute game changer. Floyd was solid, but too much of a tweener to make a real difference. I would've liked to see them try him at ILB more often, but I digress... Quinn can beat double teams which frees up Mack and Hicks. It's just gonna be absolutely brutal to watch. Hope he stays healthy.

Gipson, I think will be similar to Haha in total impact. Overall probably a better run defender and average pass coverage. I'd liken him to a lesser Adrian Amos.

Johnson is the pick I'm most excited by. I think in time, he can be Peanut Tillman-lite. He seems like an exceptional zone CB with a good head on his shoulders to go along with a chip or two. Perfect compliment to Fuller and I'm so happy when they got him.

[beardown3231]

Just now, The_Romen said:

Quinn will be an immediate and absolute game changer. Floyd was solid, but too much of a tweener to make a real difference. I would've liked to see them try him at ILB more often, but I digress... Quinn can beat double teams which frees up Mack and Hicks. It's just gonna be absolutely brutal to watch. Hope he stays healthy.

Gipson, I think will be similar to Haha in total impact. Overall probably a better run defender and average pass coverage. I'd liken him to a lesser Adrian Amos.

Johnson is the pick I'm most excited by. I think in time, he can be Peanut Tillman-lite. He seems like an exceptional zone CB with a good head on his shoulders to go along with a chip or two. Perfect compliment to Fuller and I'm so happy when they got him.

My only issue with Quinn is he's never been as good in a 3-4. I think @Heinz D. had further stats/opinions on such. Still, he'll likely be better than Floyd in terms of getting to the passer

I agree with you on the other two points. Gipson is ok, nothing special, but he won't need to be with that pass rush and the other CB's. JJ will be a nice player

[The_Romen]

2 hours ago, beardown3231 said:

My only issue with Quinn is he's never been as good in a 3-4. I think @Heinz D. had further stats/opinions on such. Still, he'll likely be better than Floyd in terms of getting to the passer

I agree with you on the other two points. Gipson is ok, nothing special, but he won't need to be with that pass rush and the other CB's. JJ will be a nice player

I hope if he's not getting to the QB standing up, they'll let him keep his hand in the dirt. Pagano should adjust, but who knows.

[soulman]

1 hour ago, The_Romen said:

I hope if he's not getting to the QB standing up, they'll let him keep his hand in the dirt. Pagano should adjust, but who knows.

IIRC Jonathan Wood did an analytical on this finding that the Bears were in a 3-4 base alignment less than 30% of their defensive snaps.  They played a whole lot of nickel using more of a hybrid 4-3 front and I've noticed that Khalil Mack has added about 15 lbs since he arrived getting him closer to the weight of a 4-3 DE and RRH is built more like a 4-3 DE as well.  So we could very well see a lot of 4-3 type looks.

[dll2000]

1. Quinn with hand in dirt is a huuuuuuuuuge upgrade over Floyd.  Most underrated move of off season in all the NFL.   He was arguably best edge rusher in the league last season as a number of stats and metrics indicate (at rushing passer).   So we went from one of worst edge pass rushers in Floyd to one of best.   And we are getting Hicks back and he is rushing opposite Mack.  Nichols and Goldman are healthy as well.  Granted all these guys aren't going to stay that way, but they were all playing hurt last year or out entirely.   Bears have potential to be best defensive front in all of football and IMO they should be just that.    

Like others pointed out Quinn game is based on quick get off from a track stance soooo making him stand up in the 3-4 will not be best plan.  Pagano has been asked about this multiple times - he just says good question we'll do what is best for team and player.  He talked about Mathis making switch and he set sack record under Pagano I think or came close.   Someone will have to go back and watch Mathis and see adjustments he made and see if Quinn can do same.      

2.  Gipson is presumed starter, but I think Bush given a fair shake may compete for this spot.  I think people underrate Bush and may be overrating Gipson.   I do think Gipson will start.  Like HHCD Gipson seems to be able to seize on opportunities if ball is poorly thrown.   A lot of DBs tend to drop those balls and those guys don't.

3.  More so than Gipson/Bush I think Jaylon Johnson is going to be tested by Tolliver and Burns.   Tolliver does not get proper credit for not allowing a drop off when replacing Prince and presumably will have improved his game with age and experience.   I think he is discounted because he started as an UDFA and Johnson is a 2nd round pick.  Actual player to player there may not be that same gap.   

Burns had a bad rep in Pitt, but the former first round pick has shown flashes at the position and is still a very young man at just 25.   There are 25 yr. old rookies. 

I would note Johnson will be coming off shoulder surgery as camp starts as well and is a rookie while these guys have logged regular season minutes.

4. Ifedi - So it is set in stone that they are playing Ifedi at guard per multiple interviews.   I think he will start at guard and be a very large upgrade over 2019 Long.  If you watch Ifedi, as I have in about 3 games, he makes pretty good blocks (at tackle) and is consistent.   

Reason Seattle fans don't like him I think, is when he gets flagged it is at worst possible moments.   Game changing moments.   Just unlucky timing.  I honestly think he would be an upgrade over Massie at OT, but that is not the plan.   I think it is very possible, no likely, he is a much better guard than people think he will be.

I still remember being pretty impressed by Bars last preseason.  He played best in preseason of any Bears O linemen (granted starters didn't play - but Coward and Lucas did and they ended up starters - and Bars outplayed them).  I think it was a travesty he wasn't on 53.

5. Roquan Smith needs to up his game and I believe he knows it too.

6.  We have a legit TE in Graham and possibly Kmet.  Whereas position absolutely sucked last year until a Redskins cast off and an UDFA finally got a chance to play to at least give position a pulse and grit.   After not having any practice reps mind you.   

I think if Bears settle on a QB early and don't drag it out ( I don't care who it is just pick one and go) this is a team the nation is sleeping on.   They can be contenders for all the same reasons we were excited in 2019 offseason.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[The_Romen]

28 minutes ago, soulman said:

IIRC Jonathan Wood did an analytical on this finding that the Bears were in a 3-4 base alignment less than 30% of their defensive snaps.  They played a whole lot of nickel using more of a hybrid 4-3 front and I've noticed that Khalil Mack has added about 15 lbs since he arrived getting him closer to the weight of a 4-3 DE and RRH is built more like a 4-3 DE as well.  So we could very well see a lot of 4-3 type looks.

I hated that they went to the 3-4 when they did. Always been a big fan of the 43.

[soulman]

I'll kick another can here and say that I'm thankful for the signing of Tashuan Gipson and the competition at Safety.

You can count me as one who was not at all pleased that Pagano decided to move his All Pro FS to SS to make way for a lesser player.

Although Gipson has often played FS as well he's also played at SS and should give us more flexibility in the secondary and I would not count Bush out as far as getting some defensive snaps either.  He's now in year five and they keep bringing him back for a reason beside just ST.  He's another who can play either Safety spot so he's good depth behind both Jackson and Gipson.

For the cost ($1.05 mil salary/$750k cap) IMHO Gipson was a very smart signing and the kind of thing I believe we'll see even more of.  Given the kind of money and cap we have tied up in Fuller and Jackson we can ill afford another pricey DB right now which is why any article about trading for Jamal Adams should be trashed.  Ain't gonna happen.  As long as we can keep picking up vets at the level of HHC-D and Gipson on the cheap we're good until the draft brings us another Adrian Amos.

[Sugashane]

I said a long time ago I preferred Kwit to DT, but honestly if they really had their eyes set on Quinn then the move for DT makes even more sense. Kwit is a run first defender and is better at passrushing than DT, but he is not as athletic so DT is a better overall cover guy. With Floyd I feel Kwit would have been a better fit, because Floyd was a weak passrusher but solid cover LB. With DT being able to cover, Quinn will get to be a more straight passrusher. They compliment each others' skilsets. 

 

They took an elite deep safety and put him toward the LOS to compensate for HHCD. That was stupid. You keep your best players in roles they are dominant in and fit pieces around them, you don't lower the ceilings of your best players to raise the floors of your JAGs. Gipson should be an immediate resolution to that issue thankfully. Get EJax roaming again. 

 

I hope Johnson shows he can stay healthy. If so he can be an immediate upgrade. But he has major concerns there so it is the same risk we took with Prince (which I was a big fan of at the time anyway too) when we got him as a FA. 

[Heinz D.]

20 hours ago, beardown3231 said:

My only issue with Quinn is he's never been as good in a 3-4. I think @Heinz D. had further stats/opinions on such. Still, he'll likely be better than Floyd in terms of getting to the passer

I agree with you on the other two points. Gipson is ok, nothing special, but he won't need to be with that pass rush and the other CB's. JJ will be a nice player

I think @dll2000 brought it up, and I had to agree. However, while pretty much everybody has to admit the stats bear that observation out, I did go on to argue that he was in a better overall defensive situation when he was planted as a 4-3 DE. So, his earlier performances are probably not indicative of what he'll do as an OLB for the Bears. (Also, it needs to be pointed out Quinn is a very good player, not a great one--so there's that, too.) He'll do just fine for the Bears, I think. Happy as hell about that move.

16 hours ago, soulman said:

IIRC Jonathan Wood did an analytical on this finding that the Bears were in a 3-4 base alignment less than 30% of their defensive snaps.  They played a whole lot of nickel using more of a hybrid 4-3 front and I've noticed that Khalil Mack has added about 15 lbs since he arrived getting him closer to the weight of a 4-3 DE and RRH is built more like a 4-3 DE as well.  So we could very well see a lot of 4-3 type looks.

I'll be the broken record again and whine about how I wish they'd get a couple new defensive linemen and stick with a 4-3 base. 30% in the 3-4 seems rather low to me, though. Is that right? What was the percentage they were in that nickel alignment? (I suppose playing Minnesota and Green Bay twice a piece has something to do with those percentages...)

16 hours ago, dll2000 said:

Gipson is presumed starter, but I think Bush given a fair shake may compete for this spot.  I think people underrate Bush and may be overrating Gipson.   I do think Gipson will start.  Like HHCD Gipson seems to be able to seize on opportunities if ball is poorly thrown.   A lot of DBs tend to drop those balls and those guys don't.

I don't know, man. Gipson is pretty damned good. Agree about Bush, though. I wouldn't have thrown a fit if he had ended up being the starter. 

16 hours ago, dll2000 said:

Roquan Smith needs to up his game and I believe he knows it too.

Huh? Once Smith sorted out his...whatever the hell that was...he was very good to spectacular.

16 hours ago, dll2000 said:

I think if Bears settle on a QB early and don't drag it out ( I don't care who it is just pick one and go) this is a team the nation is sleeping on.   They can be contenders for all the same reasons we were excited in 2019 offseason.

Absolutely. QB should be improved (whoever it is), the O-line should be improved. And the Bears were 8-8 last year. Whenever we get football again, I think the Bears will shock the hell out of everybody pretty much out of the gate. 

[dll2000]

43 minutes ago, Heinz D. said:

I think @dll2000 brought it up, and I had to agree. However, while pretty much everybody has to admit the stats bear that observation out, I did go on to argue that he was in a better overall defensive situation when he was planted as a 4-3 DE. So, his earlier performances are probably not indicative of what he'll do as an OLB for the Bears. (Also, it needs to be pointed out Quinn is a very good player, not a great one--so there's that, too.) He'll do just fine for the Bears, I think. Happy as hell about that move.

I'll be the broken record again and whine about how I wish they'd get a couple new defensive linemen and stick with a 4-3 base. 30% in the 3-4 seems rather low to me, though. Is that right? What was the percentage they were in that nickel alignment? (I suppose playing Minnesota and Green Bay twice a piece has something to do with those percentages...)

I don't know, man. Gipson is pretty damned good. Agree about Bush, though. I wouldn't have thrown a fit if he had ended up being the starter. 

Huh? Once Smith sorted out his...whatever the hell that was...he was very good to spectacular.

Absolutely. QB should be improved (whoever it is), the O-line should be improved. And the Bears were 8-8 last year. Whenever we get football again, I think the Bears will shock the hell out of everybody pretty much out of the gate. 

It would be kind of funny if they went to a 4-3 now after drafting Floyd in top 10 who should have been in a 4-3 and then letting him go for failing in a 3-4.   Kind of reverse of what they did to Shea McClennin who should have been in a 3-4 from start and they put him in 4-3.

But if they went to 4-3 they have no Sam.  Roquan is a WLB and Trevathan is MLB.  Quinn is not a Sam and neither is Mack.

You have to take a stud off field and put in Woods or Iggy in base.  You say who cares about base?  

Base matters again because Minn, GB and Detroit all want to start playing with FB more (especially after 49ers did so well with it) and go back to 90s style offensive football or mix it in to scheme a lot more because teams aren’t prepared to stop it anymore.  Or that is thought anyway.  ILBs are no longer used to shedding FB blocks in their grill like they were for generations.  

 

 

 

[Heinz D.]

2 hours ago, dll2000 said:

It would be kind of funny if they went to a 4-3 now after drafting Floyd in top 10 who should have been in a 4-3 and then letting him go for failing in a 3-4.   Kind of reverse of what they did to Shea McClennin who should have been in a 3-4 from start and they put him in 4-3.

But if they went to 4-3 they have no Sam.  Roquan is a WLB and Trevathan is MLB.  Quinn is not a Sam and neither is Mack.

You have to take a stud off field and put in Woods or Iggy in base.  You say who cares about base?  

Base matters again because Minn, GB and Detroit all want to start playing with FB more (especially after 49ers did so well with it) and go back to 90s style offensive football or mix it in to scheme a lot more because teams aren’t prepared to stop it anymore.  Or that is thought anyway.  ILBs are no longer used to shedding FB blocks in their grill like they were for generations.  

Yeah, I neglected to add that they'd need some more linebackers, too. It could be done, but a 4-3 isn't really Pagano's thing. As far as I remember, anyway. 

It's weird that playing more with a FB would be seen as a clever throwback wrinkle. The fact of the matter is that it works well, and always has, regardless of whatever new offensive scheme anybody comes up with. The Bears should use more FB, too. Oh, and less Cohen. A lot less Cohen. 

[soulman]

4 hours ago, Heinz D. said:

I'll be the broken record again and whine about how I wish they'd get a couple new defensive linemen and stick with a 4-3 base. 30% in the 3-4 seems rather low to me, though. Is that right? What was the percentage they were in that nickel alignment? (I suppose playing Minnesota and Green Bay twice a piece has something to do with those percentages...)

Nickel was over 50%.  But it's also important to consider that current hybrid 4-3 looks are not what we're used to seeing if we compare them to stuff from 10-20 years ago and more.

There are those who rate Hicks as much or more as a 3tech DT than a 5tech DE because of the way we use him to disrupt in the backfield not just tie up blockers.

I'll see if I can dig up the article again Heinz.  IIRC is was on DaBear Blog.

[WindyCity]

My issue is the defense wasn’t the problem

[JAF-N72EX]

2 minutes ago, WindyCity said:

My issue is the defense wasn’t the problem

While this may be true, we still had holes that needed to be filled.  Plus, we needed to keep the strength of our team as strong as possible and these additions, presumably, does just that.