Pace's Three Major Upgrades

[beardown3231]

5 hours ago, JustAnotherFan said:

This is just another case of bearddown riding the coat tail of Windys' propaganda.

Don't ask him to back it up with facts or actual game play though. That's difficult for him. 

 Demetrius Harris? Seriously dude? Who cares about Demetrius Harris? The Browns NEEDED tight ends, almost as bad as the Bears, and didn't retain the guy. He's a good blocker, nothing more. He's never been given a huge chance to be a receiving threat (and he won't be given that here either) and when he has, he's been just ok. I am excited that the TE position will be better, but to attribute that to TE3 who may not even make the roster seems strange.

[dll2000]

6 hours ago, JustAnotherFan said:

 

I strongly disagree with this. He has been playing in the NFL for ~7-8 years and If he was that good then he would have already found a starting job. Instead he has been bounced around to 5-6 different teams.  There's a reason why he has been a back up QB. 

Secondly,  do we even know the offense at this point? Claiming that Foles knows the offense is a stretch. Especially considering that one of the 5 or 6 offenses that Foles has played second fiddle too was featured on an offense that was co-operated by Nagy himself back in 2016 with Alex at the helm.  If Reid and Nagy saw no value in him, then what does that tell you?

Foles is not a starting caliber QB....he has been lucky. He played in the same offense that has made Wentz look good. 

That said, Foles is a high end back up QB and that's what he was brought in for. Foles>>>>>>>Chase <equal> improvement. 

 

You disagree that Foles hasn’t had amazing games?  I think that is indisputable.   The Super Bowl win alone is one of greatest performances by a QB I have seen.

You Can shoot a 60 4 times in PGA and win a major and never do it again.  It means you can do it, but are not consistent enough to maintain it and be a star on tour.  

A modern offense is just a series of concepts.   Each concept is like a mini play book with all its reads.   When I say Foles knows the offense I mean he knows a lot of concepts Nagy wants to run.   Executing them is another story.  But he knows them or most of them.

 

 

[Heinz D.]

16 hours ago, JustAnotherFan said:

I strongly disagree with this. He has been playing in the NFL for ~7-8 years and If he was that good then he would have already found a starting job. Instead he has been bounced around to 5-6 different teams.  There's a reason why he has been a back up QB. 

Can't say I'm with you there, brother. Foles was brought in to be the savior by...Jeff Fisher. And his career his been screwed up ever since. Jacksonville brought him back too soon from injury, why I don't know, then decided they wanted to see more of Minshew. Foles has gotten a lot of raw deals.

I'm not claiming that in a just and fair world he's a first ballot Hall of Famer, or anything, but to say we know for a fact that he can't be a consistent starter...I don't know about that. Now, am I counting on that? Of course not. But I'll label Foles as underrated, and leave things there. 

[MonserinNC]

58 minutes ago, Heinz D. said:

Can't say I'm with you there, brother. Foles was brought in to be the savior by...Jeff Fisher. And his career his been screwed up ever since. Jacksonville brought him back too soon from injury, why I don't know, then decided they wanted to see more of Minshew. Foles has gotten a lot of raw deals.

I'm not claiming that in a just and fair world he's a first ballot Hall of Famer, or anything, but to say we know for a fact that he can't be a consistent starter...I don't know about that. Now, am I counting on that? Of course not. But I'll label Foles as underrated, and leave things there. 

I think its understated how bad of a coach Fisher was at the end, like he ruined Vince Youngs life haha....And Goff was pretty much a huge bust and thank god McVay came in and now is a max QB.

Jax appears to be a huge mess for whatever reason, forget about it. If we would have gotten Foles after the previous season we would have been pumped.

That being said I think Trubisky wins the job, I just like the idea of having Foles in the QB room. I dont know what dirt Chase has on NFL owners but I have no clue why he is considered a backup QB in the NFL. No exaggeration, I think any D1 starter is better than him.

[Heinz D.]

1 hour ago, MonserinNC said:

I think its understated how bad of a coach Fisher was at the end, like he ruined Vince Youngs life haha....And Goff was pretty much a huge bust and thank god McVay came in and now is a max QB.

Jax appears to be a huge mess for whatever reason, forget about it. If we would have gotten Foles after the previous season we would have been pumped.

Yes, there we go! THANK YOU! For helping me state what SHOULD be the obvious!!! 

[Sugashane]

2 hours ago, MonserinNC said:

I think its understated how bad of a coach Fisher was at the end, like he ruined Vince Youngs life haha....And Goff was pretty much a huge bust and thank god McVay came in and now is a max QB.

Jax appears to be a huge mess for whatever reason, forget about it. If we would have gotten Foles after the previous season we would have been pumped.

That being said I think Trubisky wins the job, I just like the idea of having Foles in the QB room. I dont know what dirt Chase has on NFL owners but I have no clue why he is considered a backup QB in the NFL. No exaggeration, I think any D1 starter is better than him.

I mean, I see your points but let me at devil's advocate here.

Even Reid (one of the best offensive minds and QB whisperers in the league) couldn't do anything with Young either.  He was electric in college but a one- trick pony who never developed. McVay might have made Goff a max- contract QB too, but would you want him here with that deal? I sure as hell wouldnt. He's a system QB and McVay seems to be struggling to adapt so Goff can continue to play well. Now they're losing some of the talent that was a crutch for him, so I expect more of the same.  It's a bad contract that he simply isn't worth. 

 

Jax is a mess, but offensively Foles and the late-round rookie Minshew scored more points than Chicago per game. Passed for more yards too.

Chase is mediocre depth,  but the guy has a career 65+% completion percentage and a positive TD to INT ratio (paltry as it may be). If you think over 20% of the D1 starting QBs (ignore the scrubs that never play) could match either of those in the NFL then you're out of your mind my man. Lol

[soulman]

I guess we're now debating whether or not Foles is a major upgrade over Mitch.  The only way to answer that is with two more questions.

Which Mitch?

Which Foles?

Foles is better than 2019 Mitch without question but what will 2020 Mitch be like.  The Bears still believe in his upside at least for now which tells me he has a good shot at being the #1 out of the gate in the position of it's his job to lose.  Of course if he comes to camp as ill prepared as he was last year he'll lose it there before the season even begins.  There are those who believe very strongly that Nick Foles was signed to be the #1.  I'm not one of them.  I believe it's more like he was signed as a hedge against Mitch failing again to become a true #1.

But in the end I think only the 2020 season can possibly provide an answer.....or not.

[JAF-N72EX]

On 7/1/2020 at 7:03 AM, beardown3231 said:

 Demetrius Harris? Seriously dude? Who cares about Demetrius Harris? The Browns NEEDED tight ends, almost as bad as the Bears, and didn't retain the guy. He's a good blocker, nothing more. He's never been given a huge chance to be a receiving threat (and he won't be given that here either) and when he has, he's been just ok. I am excited that the TE position will be better, but to attribute that to TE3 who may not even make the roster seems strange.

Clearly you don't know how football works nor do you actually pay attention to other teams.  You are clearly a follow the ball fan and only base your opinions on social media and can't think for yourself.  That part is evident.  Any time you get asked to explain your reasoning behind your posts, you can't.   

So your entire reasoning that Thomas will be forgotten about is only because the Browns didn't resign him...... that's it?!  That's interesting but not surprising coming from you. 

None of this has anything to do with you actually supporting your claim so thank you for proving my point.  No actual facts or gameplay to backup your claim.  Color me surprised.  

Also, saying the Browns needing TE's as bad as we did is hilarious. Especially when the Browns actually had a decent group, unlike ours, that also included Njoku-- who is good but has had to fight through injuries and Kicthens BS (much like the rest of the TEs were). Almost every TE were underutilized in Kitchens scheme. 

Now, since the ONLY reason you think Thomas will be forgotten about in ~4-6 weeks into the season is because the Browns didn't resign him, let me enlighten you on a few important factors here as to WHY that happened.

Kitchens was a terrible coach and refused to give up play-calling duties in despite of his failures.  He ignored the TE in his schemes/play-calling.  Both Njoku, Thomas, and every TE were misused in Cleveland since Freddie Kitchens didn't think they fit in his (awfully) run offense for some absurd reason especially since Kitchens offense derives from the Arians offensive play-style that prefers to use a high number of plays with 2 or more TE sets.  

The big difference between Kitchens and Arians is that Arians actually knows how to utilize the strengths of his TE's and get the most out of them.  I.e use 2 TE's with designed plays AROUND the TE position.  Or send out one TE who is a better blocker to help contain edges and send out the better receiving TE to actually run routes to create diversions and put them in favorable match-ups downfield.  

Whereas, Kitchens continuously failed to design his offensive plays around the TE position regardless of any of their skill sets.  Instead, his play calling relied too heavily on the slot and outside receivers.  And whenever he did actually try to design plays that best fit each TE he would choose the WRONG TE for that specific play that would play to their weaknesses and not their strengths!  It would be like Nagy sending Braunecker out as a blocker on a obvious run play and not use him as a receiver in obvious passing situations. 

For example, Njoku may have a history of injuries, but he could be a dual threat in any offense. But Kitchens refused to design plays around him as a receiver.  Same as Thomas.  Thomas is a solid blocker but Kitchens refused to utilize his strength in blocking situations.  

Now, fast forward to this year, Freddie gets fired and the Browns hire Stefanski (to no one's surprise) who's offense ALSO derives from the Arians tree and he has a similar style much closer to that of Arians than Kitchens does. 

I would also say that if Thomas doesn't make the roster then there is something CLEARLY wrong that none of us know about.  Because, for one, there is no camp this year and so the vets are going to get the first first look -- at least to open the season anyhow.  And two, Nagy's offense rely's on two TE sets and right now we have a bunch of potential Y's on the roster at the TE position and very few players with skillsets for the U position.  Who exactly is challenging Thomas for that U position right now?  Holtz.....that's it!  A raw TE.

 

 

On 7/1/2020 at 7:51 AM, dll2000 said:

You disagree that Foles hasn’t had amazing games?  I think that is indisputable.   The Super Bowl win alone is one of greatest performances by a QB I have seen.

You Can shoot a 60 4 times in PGA and win a major and never do it again.  It means you can do it, but are not consistent enough to maintain it and be a star on tour.  

A modern offense is just a series of concepts.   Each concept is like a mini play book with all its reads.   When I say Foles knows the offense I mean he knows a lot of concepts Nagy wants to run.   Executing them is another story.  But he knows them or most of them.

 

Sure, against bad defenses while playing in a offensive QB friendly system and only coming into games when the DC is not expecting it.  A plethora of other QB's have also had a good game or two here and there.  Trubisky, Colin Kaepernick, Ryan Fitzpatrcik, Josh Johnson, Blake Bortles, Josh McCown, Brock Osweiler, Chad Henne....all say hi.  Just to name a few.

Having a good game means very little in the scheme of things. Consistency is what matters most and Foles has not shown that he has that. 

And let's be honest, his defense and his checkdowns to RB's/short routes were the reason they even went to the SB in the first place because against the Falcons he missed several wide open throws and even threw a pass that should have been intercepted but bounced off the hands of the defender and landed in the arms of one of his receivers. 

 

On 7/1/2020 at 7:51 AM, dll2000 said:

You Can shoot a 60 4 times in PGA and win a major and never do it again.  It means you can do it, but are not consistent enough to maintain it and be a star on tour.  

And what you just described is a perfect example of a bottom end fringe starter - high end backup QB.  Which is exactly what Foles is.  Which is exactly why we are having this debate to begin.

 

On 7/1/2020 at 6:07 PM, Heinz D. said:

Can't say I'm with you there, brother. Foles was brought in to be the savior by...Jeff Fisher. And his career his been screwed up ever since. Jacksonville brought him back too soon from injury, why I don't know, then decided they wanted to see more of Minshew. Foles has gotten a lot of raw deals.

I'm not claiming that in a just and fair world he's a first ballot Hall of Famer, or anything, but to say we know for a fact that he can't be a consistent starter...I don't know about that. Now, am I counting on that? Of course not. But I'll label Foles as underrated, and leave things there. 

This is not true that he has gotten alot of raw deals.  Quite the opposite, actually.  He has been lucky.  He starts out in a QB friendly style offense with Chip Kelly and goes on to have a fluke year.  And yes, it was fluke year.  Just like his SB run was.  

He has benefited greatly from circumstances. 

In 2012, Vick (who was playing good) goes down with an injury and the team suffered.  But I'll give him the BOTD on that one. 

In 2013, Vick gets injured again and he goes on to have a fluke year while playing against terrible defenses while checking down to his targets. 

• TB = 8th in overall defense. 11th in pass defense.
• Dal x2 = 30th worst defense. 27th in pass defense. 
• Oak = 26th worst defense. 29th worst pass defense.
• GB = 31st worst defense. 28th worst pass defense.
• Was = 21st worst defense. 22nd worst pass defense.
• Ari = 2nd best defense. 5th in pass defense.
• Det = 14th in defense. 20th in pass defense.
• Min = 27th worst defense. 30th in pass defense. 
• Chi = 25th worst defense. 17th in pass defense.

In 2014, he falls back to below average whenever faced against a good pass defense.  This exposed him enough that even Howie Roseman was not convinced that his 2013 season wasn't a fluke. 

2015, he goes to Fisher led team like you said. 

2016, had a chance to show the best QB coach in football (Reid) that he was worth keeping and failed. Reid, and Nagy btw, both decided he wasn't good enough to bet the future on and instead chose to let him walk and gamble on the draft.  That right there says alot.

2017, he goes back to Philly as a backup QB and gets to play in an offense that is VERY QB friendly led by Pederson.  It's easy to throw passes to wide open targets. 

2018, same as 2017. 

2019, finally gets a chance to prove that he can be a day one starter and he failed.  Even before his injury.  He lost his job to freakin Gardner Minshew.  And it says alot that even Doug Marrone, and our very own John Deflippo, had more confidence in a 6th round rookie than they had in Foles.

Stop overrating Foles.  I will take GM's/coaches opinions over ours and they have deemed him as a backup QB for a reason.  

 

On 7/5/2020 at 2:34 AM, soulman said:

I guess we're now debating whether or not Foles is a major upgrade over Mitch.  The only way to answer that is with two more questions.

Which Mitch?

Which Foles?

Foles is better than 2019 Mitch without question but what will 2020 Mitch be like.  The Bears still believe in his upside at least for now which tells me he has a good shot at being the #1 out of the gate in the position of it's his job to lose.  Of course if he comes to camp as ill prepared as he was last year he'll lose it there before the season even begins.  There are those who believe very strongly that Nick Foles was signed to be the #1.  I'm not one of them.  I believe it's more like he was signed as a hedge against Mitch failing again to become a true #1.

But in the end I think only the 2020 season can possibly provide an answer.....or not.

They both have their own weaknesses and strengthes.  They are both widely inconsistent, and have a propensity to overthrow/lead their targets, and neither are very good at sensing defensive presser.  

Mitch is better at running with the ball and throwing on the run.   Foles is strictly a pocket passer.  Foles has a better pocket presence than Mitch and is less likely to "bail" but is also more likely to check down if the option is there.    
 

Edited July 6, 2020 by JustAnotherFan

[beardown3231]

11 hours ago, JustAnotherFan said:

Clearly you don't know how football works nor do you actually pay attention to other teams.  You are clearly a follow the ball fan and only base your opinions on social media and can't think for yourself.  That part is evident.  Any time you get asked to explain your reasoning behind your posts, you can't.   

So your entire reasoning that Thomas will be forgotten about is only because the Browns didn't resign him...... that's it?!  That's interesting but not surprising coming from you. 

None of this has anything to do with you actually supporting your claim so thank you for proving my point.  No actual facts or gameplay to backup your claim.  Color me surprised.  

Also, saying the Browns needing TE's as bad as we did is hilarious. Especially when the Browns actually had a decent group, unlike ours, that also included Njoku-- who is good but has had to fight through injuries and Kicthens BS (much like the rest of the TEs were). Almost every TE were underutilized in Kitchens scheme. 

Now, since the ONLY reason you think Thomas will be forgotten about in ~4-6 weeks into the season is because the Browns didn't resign him, let me enlighten you on a few important factors here as to WHY that happened.

Kitchens was a terrible coach and refused to give up play-calling duties in despite of his failures.  He ignored the TE in his schemes/play-calling.  Both Njoku, Thomas, and every TE were misused in Cleveland since Freddie Kitchens didn't think they fit in his (awfully) run offense for some absurd reason especially since Kitchens offense derives from the Arians offensive play-style that prefers to use a high number of plays with 2 or more TE sets.  

The big difference between Kitchens and Arians is that Arians actually knows how to utilize the strengths of his TE's and get the most out of them.  I.e use 2 TE's with designed plays AROUND the TE position.  Or send out one TE who is a better blocker to help contain edges and send out the better receiving TE to actually run routes to create diversions and put them in favorable match-ups downfield.  

Whereas, Kitchens continuously failed to design his offensive plays around the TE position regardless of any of their skill sets.  Instead, his play calling relied too heavily on the slot and outside receivers.  And whenever he did actually try to design plays that best fit each TE he would choose the WRONG TE for that specific play that would play to their weaknesses and not their strengths!  It would be like Nagy sending Braunecker out as a blocker on a obvious run play and not use him as a receiver in obvious passing situations. 

For example, Njoku may have a history of injuries, but he could be a dual threat in any offense. But Kitchens refused to design plays around him as a receiver.  Same as Thomas.  Thomas is a solid blocker but Kitchens refused to utilize his strength in blocking situations.  

Now, fast forward to this year, Freddie gets fired and the Browns hire Stefanski (to no one's surprise) who's offense ALSO derives from the Arians tree and he has a similar style much closer to that of Arians than Kitchens does. 

I would also say that if Thomas doesn't make the roster then there is something CLEARLY wrong that none of us know about.  Because, for one, there is no camp this year and so the vets are going to get the first first look -- at least to open the season anyhow.  And two, Nagy's offense rely's on two TE sets and right now we have a bunch of potential Y's on the roster
 

What do you want me to explain? I always explain my reasoning and you just don't like it. You're looking for ways to talk up the player by blaming a coach, but typically guys who are "good" find a way to stick. Stefanski may not run an offense where his skills can be utilized, but every team can use a guy who's a "good" blocker. Harris was in Kansas City for years and was never utilized as a receiving threat, so maybe it's not just Kitchens and not just Stefanski. The Browns DID need TE's as bad as the Bears which is why they paid Hooper a ton and used a mid rounder on Harrison Bryant. 

There's no doubt Harris is better than the crap they trotted out there last year. They could've signed YOU and I would agree, but let's not pretend like Demetrius Harris is a good player by any stretch. He played the Y in KC however, not the U, iirc. He is extremely raw and I'd love to see him turn out to be a good player, but right now he's nothing more than a filler. You're right, though and he may just stick based on the covid situation. Honestly, I do keep forgetting about this as it relates to the NFL.

You also keep saying I get my opinions on social media. Who in their right mind on social media has an opinion on Demetrius f***ing Harris? I haven't seen any, have you? He's a single TE in a large pot of TE's that Pace has brought in, and yes I stand by my point that we all just may forget this guy was around soon. We know Graham and Kmet make the team. I think Nagy likes Holtz enough based on what we saw last year although I suppose he could designate him as a FB technically. Maybe they see growth in Horstead. Maybe a miracle happens and Shaheen isn't a giant lug (lol).

Also, not being a smarta** but are we even talking about the same guy?You keep saying Thomas but I'm talking about Harris.

Edited July 6, 2020 by beardown3231

[beardown3231]

9 hours ago, JustAnotherFan said:

 

In 2014, he falls back to below average whenever faced against a good pass defense.  This exposed him enough that even Howie Roseman was not convinced that his 2013 season wasn't a fluke. 

2015, he goes to Fisher led team like you said. 

2016, had a chance to show the best QB coach in football (Reid) that he was worth keeping and failed. Reid, and Nagy btw, both decided he wasn't good enough to bet the future on and instead chose to let him walk and gamble on the draft.  That right there says alot.

2017, he goes back to Philly as a backup QB and gets to play in an offense that is VERY QB friendly led by Pederson.  It's easy to throw passes to wide open targets. 

2018, same as 2017. 

2019, finally gets a chance to prove that he can be a day one starter and he failed.  Even before his injury.  He lost his job to freakin Gardner Minshew.  And it says alot that even Doug Marrone, and our very own John Deflippo, had more confidence in a 6th round rookie than they had in Foles.

Stop overrating Foles.  I will take GM's/coaches opinions over ours and they have deemed him as a backup QB for a reason.  

 

 

I can agree with this. There's always an excuse for Foles. When he had his magical run for the Eagles he had everything ideally set up for him- OL with all pros, good receivers, great TE, great staff. The odds that he replicates that in the slightest here are very small, especially like you said, Flip didn't think much of him last year.

[Heinz D.]

12 hours ago, JustAnotherFan said:

Stop overrating Foles.  I will take GM's/coaches opinions over ours and they have deemed him as a backup QB for a reason.  

We'll address this later, I'm sure. But do you think Nagy and Pace view Foles as exclusively Trubisky's backup? 

[JAF-N72EX]

9 hours ago, Heinz D. said:

We'll address this later, I'm sure. But do you think Nagy and Pace view Foles as exclusively Trubisky's backup? 

Depends on what you define as a "backup QB".  To me, yes. I think they view him as a backup QB who is a security blanket in case Mitch bombs again. 

I don't think there's any doubt that Mitch gets the start.  They haven't given up on him yet.  He will have a chance to show that he has improved and by how much.  If they don't think he has improved enough to move the needle or continues to play bad then that's it for him.  That's what Foles was brought in to do. 

I think they're looking at Foles in a similar way that I am.  He is only slightly better than Mitch and he is not your ideal starter but he is good enough to hold you over for one year until the draft and you could do alot worse at the backup QB position. 

[JAF-N72EX]

13 hours ago, beardown3231 said:

What do you want me to explain? I always explain my reasoning and you just don't like it. You're looking for ways to talk up the player by blaming a coach, but typically guys who are "good" find a way to stick. Stefanski may not run an offense where his skills can be utilized, but every team can use a guy who's a "good" blocker. Harris was in Kansas City for years and was never utilized as a receiving threat, so maybe it's not just Kitchens and not just Stefanski. The Browns DID need TE's as bad as the Bears which is why they paid Hooper a ton and used a mid rounder on Harrison Bryant. 

There's no doubt Harris is better than the crap they trotted out there last year. They could've signed YOU and I would agree, but let's not pretend like Demetrius Harris is a good player by any stretch. He played the Y in KC however, not the U, iirc. He is extremely raw and I'd love to see him turn out to be a good player, but right now he's nothing more than a filler. You're right, though and he may just stick based on the covid situation. Honestly, I do keep forgetting about this as it relates to the NFL.

You also keep saying I get my opinions on social media. Who in their right mind on social media has an opinion on Demetrius f***ing Harris? I haven't seen any, have you? He's a single TE in a large pot of TE's that Pace has brought in, and yes I stand by my point that we all just may forget this guy was around soon. We know Graham and Kmet make the team. I think Nagy likes Holtz enough based on what we saw last year although I suppose he could designate him as a FB technically. Maybe they see growth in Horstead. Maybe a miracle happens and Shaheen isn't a giant lug (lol).

Also, not being a smarta** but are we even talking about the same guy?You keep saying Thomas but I'm talking about Harris.

It's cool man. I aint gonna go any further in this. It's not important and I should've have said half of what I did.

And yes, I meant Harris.  Was working on something else unrelated and I had Demarius Thomas in my head. 

[JAF-N72EX]

Of all the flack that we gave Dion Sims for lack of blocking in 2018, I think Nagy misses that and that's what we'll see with HARRIS this year.  IF there is football at all. 

[soulman]

My two cents.

It has been said and demonstrated in multiple posts here just how poorly our TEs blocked last year and it's negative impact on our run game.  Harris, whom Pace jumped on very quickly on he was released, was signed to resolve that problem.

While his primary role will be that of a blocking "Y" TE, something he has done well in a similar offense in KC over 5 seasons, he's not exactly inept as receiver.  During the past three seasons he's averaged 15 catches per year/11.9 ypc, and scored 7 TDs making him a decent red zone threat.  Thirty of his 45 catches have also gone for 1st downs.  A 66.67 conversion rate.  So while his record as a receiver shows some limitations it doesn't show that he's ineffective and a dead tip off to run plays when he's in the lineup.

Time will tell but he looks to me like a pretty crafty pick up on Paces part.