candyman93 Posted July 2, 2020 Share Posted July 2, 2020 (edited) 44 minutes ago, NJerseypaint said: Supply, demand. Google says that NASA has 17,373 employees. The NFL has 1,696 rostered players. The average american is far more likely to be smart enough to be a NASA employee than athletic enough to be an NFL player. Additional observation: If NASA was as selective as the NFL but kept the same payroll budget, the average salary would be 13M per employee. Okay, I will use everything you just said and raise more questions. Why do people get upset at owners for taking more of the %? They are by your rationale; the elite of elite based on supply and demand correct? Therefore, they should be entitled to take as much money as they want and set the rules the way they want to correct? Edited July 2, 2020 by candyman93 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squire12 Posted July 2, 2020 Share Posted July 2, 2020 Lot of interesting questions come up during this process, added in the uncertainty of the COVID influenced 2020 season and how that affects the 2021 salary cap Is Chris Jones worth those demands? How does that affect the KC cap situation now and in future years with other players that will be coming up for new deals? What does Jones "responsibility" to the team in taking a lesser deal so they have more in cap space for other quality players? I think it is a fair debate on whether Jones is worth that type of contract. The potential around a smaller 2021 salary cap makes that process that much more difficult. In a raw numbers game, it would be hard to give Jones $20M if the cap drops by 10-20%. Looking at things from a % of the cap angle, $20M per year could be a good bit more than the other top DL contracts. I don't think it is Jones "responsibility to take less. This is his prime chance to cash in on a big time contract and getting as much as he can is the right decision. If you want Jones to take less, then you also need to push that same narrative for all other players....Kelce, Hill, Mahomes, etc. Since that is likely not going to happen, then Jones should not be expected to either. This is the fate of all teams that have top/upper tier talent, at some point, it becomes really hard to pay everyone what they can get on an open market. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingseanjohn Posted July 2, 2020 Share Posted July 2, 2020 30 minutes ago, candyman93 said: Okay, I will use everything you just said and raise more questions. Why do people get upset at owners for taking more of the %? They are by your rationale; the elite of elite based on supply and demand correct? Therefore, they should be entitled to take as much money as they want and set the rules the way they want to correct? Interesting way to twist it. When the owners become the product you may have a better argument. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingseanjohn Posted July 2, 2020 Share Posted July 2, 2020 Just now, squire12 said: How does that affect the KC cap situation now and in future years with other players that will be coming up for new deals? The Chiefs can afford it assuming that the 2021 cap doesn't go down. I would guess that's the biggest hurdle right now for Jones and many others. The best thing for the Chiefs is Jones playing on the tag this year and then do his deal when you have a better idea of the 2021 cap. Mahomes has to come first though. He's the domino for Jones and anyone else needing an extension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squire12 Posted July 2, 2020 Share Posted July 2, 2020 8 minutes ago, kingseanjohn said: The Chiefs can afford it assuming that the 2021 cap doesn't go down. I would guess that's the biggest hurdle right now for Jones and many others. The best thing for the Chiefs is Jones playing on the tag this year and then do his deal when you have a better idea of the 2021 cap. Mahomes has to come first though. He's the domino for Jones and anyone else needing an extension. I think you are right in that the uncertainty of the 2021 cap might be a bit of a hold up for some of the teams holding off on signing some of the top tier players to extensions. Even if the 2021 cap does not go down, but stays flat, that still puts a lot of teams in a really tough cap situation for 2021. Most teams have structured the bigger deals with more money in future years with the expectation the cap will have gone up.....if that does not happen, it would cause some noted cap issues for a few teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJerseypaint Posted July 2, 2020 Share Posted July 2, 2020 1 hour ago, candyman93 said: Okay, I will use everything you just said and raise more questions. Why do people get upset at owners for taking more of the %? They are by your rationale; the elite of elite based on supply and demand correct? Therefore, they should be entitled to take as much money as they want and set the rules the way they want to correct? Owners aren't employees - nobody pays them a salary, they earn it through the NFL & their team's profit. If you look at a team's operating income (https://www.forbes.com/nfl-valuations/list/#tab:overall) you can see that owners most likely average much more than the 13M our NASA-employed NFL players earn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted July 2, 2020 Share Posted July 2, 2020 On 7/1/2020 at 8:11 AM, Vikes22 said: Wow!!! Wanting 20 plus million for 1 good year when your previous 3 years you didn’t even start!! Don’t worry KC, the Vikings have a player ( Dalvin Cook) who also thinks he should be getting top dollar for his 1 good year... He's been a starter for roughly 2/3rds of his career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted July 2, 2020 Share Posted July 2, 2020 14 hours ago, squire12 said: Is Chris Jones worth those demands? At $20M/year? Probably not. Right now, there are only four DL in the NFL with AAV of $20M+. Those include Aaron Donald, DeMarcus Lawrence, DeForest Buckner, and Frank Clark. IF that number comes down closer to $18M/year, then it starts getting more reasonable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forge Posted July 2, 2020 Share Posted July 2, 2020 1 hour ago, CWood21 said: At $20M/year? Probably not. Right now, there are only four DL in the NFL with AAV of $20M+. Those include Aaron Donald, DeMarcus Lawrence, DeForest Buckner, and Frank Clark. IF that number comes down closer to $18M/year, then it starts getting more reasonable. The problem is, how is Buckner worth that but not Jones. If you put that poll up, that's going to be a very close vote, I think, and statistically, they are very close. Obviously different people would have a preference one way or hte other, but at the very least they are good comparables for one another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 8 hours ago, CWood21 said: At $20M/year? Probably not. Right now, there are only four DL in the NFL with AAV of $20M+. Those include Aaron Donald, DeMarcus Lawrence, DeForest Buckner, and Frank Clark. IF that number comes down closer to $18M/year, then it starts getting more reasonable. Inflation, though. Clark and Lawrence didn’t deserve to be in Donald/Mack territory dollar-wise, but they are. Naturally, others will follow as years go by. Chris Jones has a case to be in the Buckner, Clark, Lawrence category anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squire12 Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 8 hours ago, CWood21 said: At $20M/year? Probably not. Right now, there are only four DL in the NFL with AAV of $20M+. Those include Aaron Donald, DeMarcus Lawrence, DeForest Buckner, and Frank Clark. IF that number comes down closer to $18M/year, then it starts getting more reasonable. what you or I think he is worth is mostly irrelevant. It only takes 1 team to feel Jones is worth $20M if he were to be on the open market. If his agent and he feel that is a possibility to get that type of contract, then why would he settle for less? Certainly it would be a risk, but we have seen more than a few players take that risk to try to get that best contract on the open market. It can backfire for sure. The added unknown of how the COVID pandemic might affect the 2021 cap space is also floating out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninerjunkie Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 8 hours ago, Forge said: The problem is, how is Buckner worth that but not Jones. If you put that poll up, that's going to be a very close vote, I think, and statistically, they are very close. Obviously different people would have a preference one way or hte other, but at the very least they are good comparables for one another. Statistically Buckner has been great for us since his rookie year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forge Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 54 minutes ago, Ninerjunkie said: Statistically Buckner has been great for us since his rookie year Okay, that's awesome. Not sure what you are getting at? Jones' stats over their careers is insanely similar to Buckner's outside of tackles, a statistic most people likely don't care much about. Jones has more sacks. One less tfl in their career. More passes defended, more interceptions, more forced fumbles, nearly identical quarterback hits (two fewer). A ton more knockdowns and actual pressures the last two years, more hurries, less missed tackles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 3 hours ago, squire12 said: what you or I think he is worth is mostly irrelevant. It only takes 1 team to feel Jones is worth $20M if he were to be on the open market. If his agent and he feel that is a possibility to get that type of contract, then why would he settle for less? Certainly it would be a risk, but we have seen more than a few players take that risk to try to get that best contract on the open market. It can backfire for sure. The added unknown of how the COVID pandemic might affect the 2021 cap space is also floating out there. That's true. But just because one teams overpays for a player doesn't mean every other team is going to overpay. The Colts were in a weird spot. They just traded their FRP (13th overall IIRC) for him. IF they didn't lock him up to a long-term deal, that was an incredibly short-sighted move. But there's also the structure of the deal that we don't talk about enough as fans. Go look at DeForest Buckner's contract. I'm not smart enough to post a screenshot of it, so I'll let you do the legwork. It contains no signing bonus, and no guaranteed money past 2021, so they've essentially got a 2 year, $40M deal with 3 options at $16M, $19.75M, and and $20.25M respectively. Compare that to say Aaron Donald who got a $40M signing bonus AND has guaranteed money for four seasons on his new deal. His agent is probably floating the DeForest Buckner "comp" for his contract, but he's probably going to sign closer to what Fletcher Cox got plus inflation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 10 hours ago, Forge said: The problem is, how is Buckner worth that but not Jones. If you put that poll up, that's going to be a very close vote, I think, and statistically, they are very close. Obviously different people would have a preference one way or hte other, but at the very least they are good comparables for one another. Look at the structure of the Buckner deal, and compare it to say Aaron Donald. Buckner essentially got a 2 year, $40M deal, but Years 3-5 have ZERO guaranteed money. IF Chris Jones is dead set on hitting that $20M AAV, he's going to be making some concessions. Buckner gave up a signing bonus AND any long-term security to hit that AAV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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