WaPo article expected Thursday detailing major issues inside Redskins Park

[Thaiphoon]

2 minutes ago, MKnight82 said:

So as a counterpoint, just to throw out a more optimistic look on this, I would argue that coach's biggest foil in team building is that they can't take a long term team building approach vs. a win now philosophy.  The positive is that Rivera is being given this power immediately, instead of midway through his tenure.  So I think he will take a more long term team building approach, and I think we've seen that this year as we didn't go nuts in free agency.  

And the flip side pessimist view is the mirror image of that. What happens when he's in the hot seat as a coach and then bypasses generational talent in the draft in order to get the immediate fix to the roster and save his job as coach?

[naptownskinsfan]

1 minute ago, MKnight82 said:

So as a counterpoint, just to throw out a more optimistic look on this, I would argue that coach's biggest foil in team building is that they can't take a long term team building approach vs. a win now philosophy.  The positive is that Rivera is being given this power immediately, instead of midway through his tenure.  So I think he will take a more long term team building approach, and I think we've seen that this year as we didn't go nuts in free agency.  

Mike Holmgren is the best example I can give in regards to why this doesn't work.  I don't think anyone would argue with his resume as a head coach. It certainly stacks up better than Rivera's going into Seattle.  He's got a .592 winning percentage, which would be over .600 if you took out the sub .500 record his first four seasons with Seattle where he was in charge of both.   The exact quote was "We want to free up Mike to do more coaching" when they split the GM duties away from him.  

The next season?  The Seahawks got a Wild Card trip to the playoffs and reeled off four straight NFC West titles.  

A great, or even good head coach, may not be the best talent evaluator.  In the same way, the best talent evaluator may not be the best coach.  That is why someone should be running the front office, and someone should be running the coaching staff and the team.  

I don't have a problem that they went without the traditional top-down GM to head coach setup.  What I have a problem with is that, instead of Rivera and Smith working together, Rivera seems to have the final decisions for the front office, and seems to have power over the business side as well.  

From what NFL history tells us, that is not sustainable.  

[Thaiphoon]

1 minute ago, naptownskinsfan said:

Mike Holmgren is the best example I can give in regards to why this doesn't work.  I don't think anyone would argue with his resume as a head coach. It certainly stacks up better than Rivera's going into Seattle.  He's got a .592 winning percentage, which would be over .600 if you took out the sub .500 record his first four seasons with Seattle where he was in charge of both.   The exact quote was "We want to free up Mike to do more coaching" when they split the GM duties away from him.  

The next season?  The Seahawks got a Wild Card trip to the playoffs and reeled off four straight NFC West titles.  

A great, or even good head coach, may not be the best talent evaluator.  In the same way, the best talent evaluator may not be the best coach.  That is why someone should be running the front office, and someone should be running the coaching staff and the team.  

I don't have a problem that they went without the traditional top-down GM to head coach setup.  What I have a problem with is that, instead of Rivera and Smith working together, Rivera seems to have the final decisions for the front office, and seems to have power over the business side as well.  

From what NFL history tells us, that is not sustainable.  

It's literally almost like he is the defacto owner when it comes to any organizational decision.

[Deadpulse]

15 minutes ago, naptownskinsfan said:

You are also neglecting to mention that no one but Belichick has succeeded as the CEO and Coach, and he has successfully mastered how to delegate and is not involved in the business side of the Patriots.  Every other coach-centered person that we think is coach centered has a strong person they are working in lockstep with in the front office.  The longer Rivera takes in naming Kyle Smith the GM (or whatever title that indicates he runs the front office) the further away we get from a collaborative effort and to a coach-centered one that usually fails.  

Just to kind of boon your point here, BB's involvement in the front office is often overblown. He has and has had MANY great FO personnel throughout his tenure. Yes, the man is involved in the talent acquisition, trades, player evaluation, drafting etc. However, his focus always remains coaching giving leeway to the likes of Ernie Adams and Nick Caserio to handle the specifics. So while technically he does wear the GM hat and makes the final decisions, he does lean heavily on the rest of the staff. 

[naptownskinsfan]

Just now, Deadpulse said:

Just to kind of boon your point here, BB's involvement in the front office is often overblown. He has and has had MANY great FO personnel throughout his tenure. Yes, the man is involved in the talent acquisition, trades, player evaluation, drafting etc. However, his focus always remains coaching giving leeway to the likes of Ernie Adams and Nick Caserio to handle the specifics. So while technically he does wear the GM hat and makes the final decisions, he does lean heavily on the rest of the staff. 

I'm well aware, because as a Redskins fan, I'd like to know what a successful front office looks like.  

The problem is, we don't have an Adams, Caserio or anyone else appointed to that position.  Currently, Doug Williams who was operating as Bruce Allen's hand in the front office for a few years, is still in the front office, as well as Kyle Smith, who many want to see be the GM.  Additionally, the pro scout was just fired by the team, and that role would be traditionally filled by the GM.  Instead, Rivera is handing it to his former pro scout with the Panthers.  

This is the problem I am seeing.  Rivera can't effectively do both without having someone in charge and reporting directly to him about everything going on.  On top of that, he seems to be the team spokesperson and is involved in some of the business decisions.  Having that kind of influence is unprecedented, and that's before we get to the fact that he's only been here seven months, and his recent record doesn't look too kindly on him.  

[ovfd55]

Wonder if that was part of the news

[e16bball]

Good discussion over the last few posts. I think both sides of the coin are being hit effectively. 

One of my things, with regard to the specific name change dynamics, is that it’s making clear where Kyle Smith falls in the hierarchy and how much of an “actual” GM he is. Which is to say — he’s not an actual GM. They’re treating him as though he’s just a personnel guy, as he’s absolutely had no visible or even referred-to role in the process. Ron isn’t saying “hey, Dan and I are sitting down with Kyle (and Doug and the rest of the FO) to work on this,” it’s pretty plainly just the Ron and Dan show. 

If SEA was changing their name, I believe Pete Carroll would definitely have a strong voice in the process. But so would John Schneider. They’d both in on it, and they’d both be involved in addressing it publicly. John Dorsey (and now Brett Veach) have a voice with KC. Mickey Loomis absolutely would be involved in NO, especially with the behind the scenes business decisions. John Harbaugh and Eric Decosta are next-door neighbors, they literally share a fence. 

Our situation more clearly resembles the setup in New England and Houston, where the coach is clearly at the top of the totem pole (apologies), than it does the true collaborative approaches. I appreciated having @Deadpulsechime in about the structure of their organization. It seems to me that it probably is similar to what we have brewing here — Kraft and Belichick are the public faces and probably the two involved in major organizational, while Caserio and co. have a more significant role in their more limited areas of expertise (personnel, scouting, on-field decisions, etc). Is that a fair assessment of the structure? To me, that closely resembles what we have here, with the coach and owner on the top tier and the personnel department subordinate to them and largely cordoned off from getting involved in the big organizational decisions.

[Troublez]

@Thaiphoon @naptownskinsfan Thanks for the response and dialogue! I am going to try and be bit more concise with my response and challenge both you .... as I feel that my points are not being communicated (or at least interpreted as intended).

What is Ron not doing - that he should be?

[Thaiphoon]

59 minutes ago, Troublez said:

@Thaiphoon @naptownskinsfan Thanks for the response and dialogue! I am going to try and be bit more concise with my response and challenge both you .... as I feel that my points are not being communicated (or at least interpreted as intended).

What is Ron not doing - that he should be?

Already asked and answered.

TL:DR - Focusing solely on the actual players and their preparations to play. That's what I want my coach involved in. If he's involved in ANYTHING else, it's a huge mistake.

[naptownskinsfan]

1 hour ago, Troublez said:

@Thaiphoon @naptownskinsfan Thanks for the response and dialogue! I am going to try and be bit more concise with my response and challenge both you .... as I feel that my points are not being communicated (or at least interpreted as intended).

What is Ron not doing - that he should be?

1.) Name a GM, or at least promote someone so we know what the hierarchy is in the front office.  The football coach can’t run both the football operations, front office and coach the team.  I understand coaches want final say, and I am fine with that, but appearances are that Rivera has his hands in too many pots and trying to control it.  

2.) Stop being Snyder’s BFF.  He was hired to coach football, and help get the front office in order.  He can’t do either if he is also being the head PR guy and seemingly involved in decisions made on the business side of things, on top of the aforementioned football operations, front office and coaching the team.  

3.) Instead of hiring all ex-Panther guys, hire the guys who are best for the job.  Right now, we’ve hired more ex-Panthers guys in one off-season than Bruce Allen hired ex-Buccaneers his entire tenure.  

It’s what I’ve been saying, except phased it differently with your question. 

[Troublez]

^^ This is helpful. I would agree with these points and in general with most of what has been said. But see below:

Regarding point # 2: Overall - yes, Ron shouldn't give a fly F**** what Danny boy thinks / says regarding football decisions. But, by catering to Dan on non-football related topics, perhaps he is just playing politics.... maybe this is how Ron keep's his hands out of football decisions.

 

[Troublez]

52 minutes ago, Thaiphoon said:

Already asked and answered.

TL:DR - Focusing solely on the actual players and their preparations to play. That's what I want my coach involved in. If he's involved in ANYTHING else, it's a huge mistake.

I guess I am looking for "positive assurance" to support the logic and/or your position.... such as, my reference to Vince Lombardi's design of the 1969/70 helmet. That was a direct example to support my position. In my experience, "negative assurance" is not as strong.....

Translation for non CPA's

Negative assurance is a determination by an auditor that a particular set of facts is believed to be accurate since no contrary evidence has been found to dispute them.

Edited July 14, 2020 by Troublez

[MKnight82]

33 minutes ago, naptownskinsfan said:

1.) Name a GM, or at least promote someone so we know what the hierarchy is in the front office.  The football coach can’t run both the football operations, front office and coach the team.  I understand coaches want final say, and I am fine with that, but appearances are that Rivera has his hands in too many pots and trying to control it.

Obviously Belichick, I would argue Andy Reid has this power after pushing the old GM out.  Joe Gibbs 2.0 had this power and was the most successful coach we've had under Snyder.  

34 minutes ago, naptownskinsfan said:

2.) Stop being Snyder’s BFF.  He was hired to coach football, and help get the front office in order.  He can’t do either if he is also being the head PR guy and seemingly involved in decisions made on the business side of things, on top of the aforementioned football operations, front office and coaching the team.  

I actually think this is a strength of having the HC in charge.  He's going to be primarily down on the field with the players, instead of yucking it up with Snyder in the box seats all game.  

35 minutes ago, naptownskinsfan said:

3.) Instead of hiring all ex-Panther guys, hire the guys who are best for the job.  Right now, we’ve hired more ex-Panthers guys in one off-season than Bruce Allen hired ex-Buccaneers his entire tenure.  

This is year 1 of what I would expect to be a pretty long rebuild.  I'm not surprised he brought people he knew with him for the start, they may be shown the door as the process goes along.  I'd also argue the guys he brought with them put together a team that made it to the SB, drafted a QB that won an MVP, and developed one of the best defenses in the NFL.  

[bigdog44]

I have no problem with Ron getting all the power he needs, or thinks he needs, to get this thing turned around. Guys remember a season ago, Gruden was checked out since the Haskins pick, and Bruce was checked out, well, for his entire tenure. To come out of that mess with a solid head coach in Rivera was a remarkable job by Snyder, yes Dan Snyder. Did Rivera have leverage in that no one else wanted this job? Probably.

Maybe Rivera has a GM In mind that just wasn’t available this offseason. After the last 2 decades, I willing to give this guy the time needed to build a consistent winner.

[turtle28]

I don't know who these dudes are but here's some info: