Xmad Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 41 minutes ago, Danger said: Winning a Super Bowl doesn't make you the best QB. It's a major factor, but if you're really going to suggest Foles > Luck, you'd fail as a GM. Wilson>Luck>Cousins>Foles>RG3 in that order. But yes thank you for telling me your opinion on something not relevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, Xmad said: Wilson>Luck>Cousins>Foles>RG3 in that order. But yes thank you for telling me your opinion on something not relevant. One hot stretch of 3-4 games for Flacco doesn't make him the best QB from that draft class. Take off the purple shades bro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xmad Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 20 minutes ago, Danger said: One hot stretch of 3-4 games for Flacco doesn't make him the best QB from that draft class. Take off the purple shades bro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 3 hours ago, Drained said: And Matt Stafford should go in the HOF. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archimedes Posted July 13, 2020 Author Share Posted July 13, 2020 4 hours ago, Yin-Yang said: There is a low standard. Matthew Stafford is likely going to retire as one of the most statistically prolific passers as well, should he get in? For many, there’s more to it than stats. Matt Ryan, aside from one season, has never been the best QB in the league. He’s never really been consistently in the conversation as amongst the best either, meaning never in the conversation to be as good/better than the top QBs. And for the HOF, that matters. Stats and accomplishments - the latter of which Ryan actually lacks in some respects - are important too, but being consistently being elite should matter more. Putting in everybody with good stats is a low standard. I disagree with that. For me he's been a consistently top 5 to 8 QB for the entirety of the past decade. Coming into this season there are only 5 QBs I would take over him: Mahomes, Wilson, Rodgers, Brees, and Watson. (That's this season only, if you're factoring in age I'd probably take Wentz and Dak over him) He's got 4 times as many PBs as Stafford, a ROY, and an MVP, none of which Stafford has. The Falcons have been one of the better teams in the NFC during his run, he's been to two NFCCGs, and an SB appearance. He's got numbers, individual accolades, AND his teams have consistently won. How is his resume much worse than Fouts or Jim Kelly's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jameson_Neat Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 It's amazing to me that fans that dog guys like Matt Ryan have no problem with Frank Gore getting the nod. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 25 minutes ago, Archimedes said: I disagree with that. For me he's been a consistently top 5 to 8 QB for the entirety of the past decade. That’s not what I said. I said he’s never consistently been as good or better than the top QBs. Aside from one season, has he ever been as good or better than Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Peyton? No. 25 minutes ago, Archimedes said: Coming into this season there are only 5 QBs I would take over him: Mahomes, Wilson, Rodgers, Brees, and Watson. (That's this season only, if you're factoring in age I'd probably take Wentz and Dak over him) That’s fine and dandy. Being below the best guys does not a HOF resume make. 25 minutes ago, Archimedes said: He's got 4 times as many PBs as Stafford, a ROY, and an MVP, none of which Stafford has. Point went over your head. Being a statistically prolific passer is basically any decent QB that can hold down a starting job in today’s era. That’s exactly what you have in Stafford. 25 minutes ago, Archimedes said: The Falcons have been one of the better teams in the NFC during his run, .577 win %, 6 total playoff runs in 12 tries, only 4 postseason wins. Again, unimpressive. 25 minutes ago, Archimedes said: he's been to two NFCCGs, and an SB appearance. Garoppolo has an NFCCG and a SB too. HOF bound. 25 minutes ago, Archimedes said: He's got numbers So do many other non-worthy players. 25 minutes ago, Archimedes said: , individual accolades 4 PBs is pedestrian. Especially for a 12 year career. An MVP is good, though. 25 minutes ago, Archimedes said: , AND his teams have consistently won. .577 win percentage is decent, nothing insane though. 25 minutes ago, Archimedes said: How is his resume much worse than Fouts or Jim Kelly's? That’s exactly how low standards come about. “If this guy got in, then surely this other guy deserves to be in.” It’s a slippery slope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanedorf Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 54 minutes ago, Archimedes said: How is his resume much worse than Fouts or Jim Kelly's? Probably pretty similar, but Ryan would get dinged a little for the era he played in compared to those guys He also has 5 out of 12 seasons that were 8-8 or below and although its a team sport - that's a lot of non-winning seasons. ( 41 %) Is that consistent winning in the eyes of the voters ? What seminal moment can you point to in the playoffs or Super Bowl where Ryan was transcendent ( I'm not saying there isn't one, I'm saying I don't know) Some players will struggle to gain HOF induction in part because many of the guys making the case for them and voting on their worthiness are professional writers and mythmakers. Without some heroic play, its hard to get The Room excited about his candidacy. Right or wrong - there's a story-telling component to the HOF, so you need more than gaudy stats to gain entry. Personally, I wouldn't vote for him - but I have not been presented the full case. And I freely admit there's much I don't know about Matt Ryan's candidacy including some of the notes in this thread from Archimedes and others. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archimedes Posted July 14, 2020 Author Share Posted July 14, 2020 19 minutes ago, Shanedorf said: Probably pretty similar, but Ryan would get dinged a little for the era he played in compared to those guys He also has 5 out of 12 seasons that were 8-8 or below and although its a team sport - that's a lot of non-winning seasons. ( 41 %) Is that consistent winning in the eyes of the voters ? What seminal moment can you point to in the playoffs or Super Bowl where Ryan was transcendent ( I'm not saying there isn't one, I'm saying I don't know) Some players will struggle to gain HOF induction in part because many of the guys making the case for them and voting on their worthiness are professional writers and mythmakers. Without some heroic play, its hard to get The Room excited about his candidacy. Right or wrong - there's a story-telling component to the HOF, so you need more than gaudy stats to gain entry. Personally, I wouldn't vote for him - but I have not been presented the full case. And I freely admit there's much I don't know about Matt Ryan's candidacy including some of the notes in this thread from Archimedes and others. A fair take. I think right now his resume is slightly lacking, but I think he's close enough to play his way in with 3 more seasons of his usual play. That was my argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archimedes Posted July 14, 2020 Author Share Posted July 14, 2020 33 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said: That’s not what I said. I said he’s never consistently been as good or better than the top QBs. Aside from one season, has he ever been as good or better than Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Peyton? No. That’s fine and dandy. Being below the best guys does not a HOF resume make. Point went over your head. Being a statistically prolific passer is basically any decent QB that can hold down a starting job in today’s era. That’s exactly what you have in Stafford. .577 win %, 6 total playoff runs in 12 tries, only 4 postseason wins. Again, unimpressive. Garoppolo has an NFCCG and a SB too. HOF bound. So do many other non-worthy players. 4 PBs is pedestrian. Especially for a 12 year career. An MVP is good, though. .577 win percentage is decent, nothing insane though. That’s exactly how low standards come about. “If this guy got in, then surely this other guy deserves to be in.” It’s a slippery slope. If you think Kelly and Fouts don't belong in I don't really care about your opinion on the matter because you're wrong. If you think they do belong in but their resumes are somehow significantly superior to his you're wrong, and again, I don't really care about your opinion on the matter. Then again, you just used the rather lame Jimmy Garaoppolo example, so I think I don't really care about your opinion on the matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 19 minutes ago, Archimedes said: If you think Kelly and Fouts don't belong in I don't really care about your opinion on the matter because you're wrong. If you think they do belong in but their resumes are somehow significantly superior to his you're wrong, and again, I don't really care about your opinion on the matter. So ipso facto, if I or anyone think Ryan isn’t a HOFer, you don’t care and we’re wrong? Just trying to clarify. 19 minutes ago, Archimedes said: Then again, you just used the rather lame Jimmy Garaoppolo example, so I think I don't really care about your opinion on the matter. Shrug. You made a thread and want to feel a certain way because people disagree, it’s whatever. Everyone ought to be in the HOF, I guess. Just need to stick around, stay a little above .500, and get one accolade! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bad Example Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 8 hours ago, Danger said: It amazes me how low people's standards are for the HoF when it comes to QBs. Newton, Rivers, Ryan? Get out of here. If you compare them historically, they've got great numbers; if you compare them to their contemporaries, they're good, not great, and don't have the hardware that HoF voters crave. FWIW, the best analogue in my mind for Ryan is Rivers, who is a player where I can see both sides of the argument and feel like him being in is justifiable and I'd be all for it, but I'm not going to be put out if he doesn't make it in. Ryan is a tick below, where I would lean towards leaving him out, but would go "oh, OK" if he made it in. My own metric is "was this guy one of the 2 or 3 best at his position for a 5 yr stretch, or even just 5 yrs of his career?"; I know we're at peak QB, but I think Ryan is more of a top 10 guy with a season or two in the top 3, and that just isn't enough. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TecmoSuperJoe Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 6 hours ago, Xmad said: Who won a super bowl? I rest my case. Was Jeff Hostetler better than Boomer Esiason? Was Jim Plunkett better than Ken Anderson? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TecmoSuperJoe Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 I'd say yes. Moon is in, and Ryan's resume is superior to Moon's accolades as a player. But I feel like he'll be pushed to the side like Kenny Anderson has been all these years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bad Example Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 Ken Anderson was arguably the best QB of the 70s (I have him behind Staubach). Matt Ryan is nowhere near arguably even the 3rd best QB of his era. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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