MKnight82 Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 1 hour ago, e16bball said: 3rd in the league in tackles among safeties. 2nd in the league in TFLs among safeties (one behind Jamal Adams for the league lead). 6th in the league in FFs among safeties. Only 7.0 yards per target against. Sorry none of that moved the needle for you. It just reinforces in my mind how little of an impact Safeties make on the game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTTRDynasty Posted July 19, 2020 Author Share Posted July 19, 2020 2 hours ago, naptownskinsfan said: Agreed. He's the all-glove, no bat starting shortstop with his play in the box and being a liability in coverage. Collins is great at what he does in the box. But when asked to cover, he is below average since he struggles against tight ends and running backs out of the backfield. Coverage is more important than ever, even for a strong safety, and for him to be subpar really brings his value down and he was not worth the price tag of "highest paid NFL safety" at the time. He's worth playing and starting, just like that all glove SS......if you have a good enough lineup to make up for him. In the NFL, that means have a free safety who can cover deep, as well as a linebacker who can cover TE and RB, and last year we had neither. TE’s, I agree. RB’s, I don’t remember him having trouble covering them out of the backfield. I also think people might be over-attributing our coverage busts to him when a lot of times the CBs were at fault. Moreau and Moreland really struggled in zone last year. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naptownskinsfan Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 11 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said: TE’s, I agree. RB’s, I don’t remember him having trouble covering them out of the backfield. I also think people might be over-attributing our coverage busts to him when a lot of times the CBs were at fault. Moreau and Moreland really struggled in zone last year. Later in the season we started to struggle against the RB out of the backfield. McCaffrey and Samuel (I know not a RB, but he ran similar routes to them) tore us up. Saquon Barkley tore us up in the second game, while Wayne Gallman had a pretty good game for the Giants the first time replacing him. Dalvin Cook did some damage out of the backfield as did Aaron Jones and Miles Sanders. Again, Collins covers different guys than the corners do most of the time unless the opposing team is scheming for a mismatch. As I pointed out a few posts above, to minimize his coverage deficiencies, specifically against TE/RB, you need a linebacker who can cover those guys, which we don't have. We also don't have strong coverage at free safety to give help to corners either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTTRDynasty Posted July 19, 2020 Author Share Posted July 19, 2020 1 minute ago, naptownskinsfan said: Later in the season we started to struggle against the RB out of the backfield. McCaffrey and Samuel (I know not a RB, but he ran similar routes to them) tore us up. Saquon Barkley tore us up in the second game, while Wayne Gallman had a pretty good game for the Giants the first time replacing him. Dalvin Cook did some damage out of the backfield as did Aaron Jones and Miles Sanders. Again, Collins covers different guys than the corners do most of the time unless the opposing team is scheming for a mismatch. As I pointed out a few posts above, to minimize his coverage deficiencies, specifically against TE/RB, you need a linebacker who can cover those guys, which we don't have. We also don't have strong coverage at free safety to give help to corners either. I honestly don't remember Collins covering any of those guys when they "tore us up". I do remember the bomb to Saquon for a TD, but that looked like a coverage bust to me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lavar703 Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 5 hours ago, taylor made said: LOL, DJ Swearinger has outplayed Collins No he didn’t. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lavar703 Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 4 hours ago, naptownskinsfan said: Swearinger outplayed Collins, Rogers was better than Collins, Norman's first two years were miles better than Collins.....there are a few others who I am probably missing who I would rather have over Landon Collins, especially given what we paid for Collins. He might be borderline top five defensive back since Sean Taylor, but given our record and talent over that time period, that's not really a compliment. I don’t agree with any of that. Rogers wasn’t that great here and played under a much better coordinator. Swearinger was good for half a season and Norman was good for one year and decent in the others. Acting like Collins was trash is hilarious but whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naptownskinsfan Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 Just now, lavar703 said: I don’t agree with any of that. Rogers wasn’t that great here and played under a much better coordinator. Swearinger was good for half a season and Norman was good for one year and decent in the others. Acting like Collins was trash is hilarious but whatever. In my opinion, Rogers was a fantastic cover guy. He gets a bad rap because of the drops, but he was a very good man corner. Swearinger was better than just half a season that year. I wouldn't say this season he was better than Collins- far from it- but he put up just as good, or a better season that year than Collins did this year. I won't argue Norman, it seems we would be splitting hairs. I'm not saying Collins is trash. I just completed a redraft team in the Cowboys forum and took Collins as my starting SS. I'm just saying he's not worth the contract, especially given that his skillset is one that is becoming less and less important in the NFL. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naptownskinsfan Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 3 hours ago, MKnight82 said: It just reinforces in my mind how little of an impact Safeties make on the game. Strong safety, yes. A great free safety, or someone with range like Polamalu or the ability to cover TE's like Jamal Adams are still gamechangers. A box safety like Collins is going to be limited in how we can use his best skillset, and he is deficient in coverage, which is the area safeties are needed the most right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylor made Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 5 hours ago, e16bball said: Okay, let’s look at the stats. 3rd in the league in tackles among safeties. 2nd in the league in TFLs among safeties (one behind Jamal Adams for the league lead). 6th in the league in FFs among safeties. Only 7.0 yards per target against. Sorry none of that moved the needle for you. Yeah, it really doesn't. I left out tackles for a reason... oh and you forgot the 16 missed tackles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 8 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said: TE’s, I agree. RB’s, I don’t remember him having trouble covering them out of the backfield. I also think people might be over-attributing our coverage busts to him when a lot of times the CBs were at fault. Moreau and Moreland really struggled in zone last year. Nicholson also blew a lot of assignments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, naptownskinsfan said: In my opinion, Rogers was a fantastic cover guy. He gets a bad rap because of the drops, but he was a very good man corner. Swearinger was better than just half a season that year. I wouldn't say this season he was better than Collins- far from it- but he put up just as good, or a better season that year than Collins did this year. I won't argue Norman, it seems we would be splitting hairs. I'm not saying Collins is trash. I just completed a redraft team in the Cowboys forum and took Collins as my starting SS. I'm just saying he's not worth the contract, especially given that his skillset is one that is becoming less and less important in the NFL. We cant change Collins’ contract. What's done is done. He's a safety who plays like a linebacker, I'm fine with that as long as our FS this year - Sean Davis - is an upgrade over Nicholson, and I think he is by a lot. I agree with you on Rogers. He was a great cover guy, great against the run for a corner, he just couldn't catch and that's bc the dumb training staff doesn't realize he needed glasses/contacts and I guess neither did he! I would have rather kept him than Hall tbh, Rogers was a better all-around DB, but Hall was the better playmaker. I agree that Swearinger was better for 1/2 a season but fans overrated him bc he was the best safety we had had since Landry in 2011 bc Shanahan/Allen refused to address the position properly until Allen/McCloughan signed Swearinger. Swearinger’s issue was the division he caused and he does it everywhere he goes, it's why he's on a new team almost every year. He doesn't keep stuff in house, he's always fighting with his coaches and it creates issues on the team. I agree w/ Lavar on Norman, I actually never wanted to sign him to the huge contract that we did. I wanted to just keep the 2015 secondary we had - I think Norman messed with our chemistry in 2016. I wanted to re-sign Breeland. People have to accept Collins for what he is and quit fighting over what he isn't or never will be. We had these arguments in 2015 all offseason before the draft bc I wanted to trade back an take Collins - if Leonard Williams wasn't there or take an OLB & McKnight wanted Dante Fowler so bad. We argued back and forth on it for months and still now he hates Collins, he just can not let it go. It continued the next year bc I wanted Sua Cravens and he couldn't stand it. He has for 8 years called the safety position basically pointless and says you can fill it with late round picks and cheap free agents. We've mostly don't that this decade except for signing Swearinger & Collins, and has it worked to the benefit of our defense? I don't think so. We should've franchised Landry in 2012 instead of Fred Davis, we could have used his pro bowl play that year on our D. I don't understand his distain for the safety position and never will. Edited July 20, 2020 by turtle28 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naptownskinsfan Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 @turtle28 I get your points, but I also see the point of these forums is to discuss things, not just in the future but the past. You have said a few things critical of personnel moves that have happened in the past more than once, and I've never used that against you, nor would I use it in the future. For me, two things stick out the most about Dan Snyder's tenure here as owner- bad hirings, and bad free agent signings. Those lists are endless. In my opinion, not only have we handed out the worst FA contract ever to Haynesworth, we have another FA contract that some view as top 10 worst in recent memory (Archuleta) as well as a history of overpaying for safeties in Archuleta and Collins. In my opinion, even though the signing is over and done with, we should still be free to criticize it because it is the organization not learning from mistakes of the past. We overpaid for a box safety, something that is losing value in the NFL. Not only did we overpay, we made him the highest paid safety at the time, and Collins just doesn't bring that kind of impact with his game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offbyone Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 Collins is at worst a very good safety and more likely elite. We got a guy in his prime and youth. Yes we spent a boat load of money on him. Who cares about the money? It isn't like we traded a first round and then gave him a giant contract to boot. Salary cap isn't an issue with the redskins other than we appear to be hording it for the first time in years. Youthful talent should only be seen as a positive. Considering the endless mistakes, overspending, bust free agents, bust draft picks, bust coaches, bust everything, there is no reason to be anything but happy about having Landon Collins on our team. Plus, he actually wants to be here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 (edited) On 7/19/2020 at 3:05 PM, HTTRDynasty said: I honestly don't remember Collins covering any of those guys when they "tore us up". I do remember the bomb to Saquon for a TD, but that looked like a coverage bust to me. Yes, Christian McCaffery only had 58 yards receiving vs the Redskins when we played them, yes, 7 reception, but only 58 yards for an 8.29 yard per catch average. He had no TDs receiving or rushing vs our defense. So, you are correct, he didn't tear our D up and if, IF it was Collins covering him out of the backfield most of the game, he did a good job of tackling after McCaffery caught the ball. The Saquon play was a blown coverage vs the Giants. I remember Collins being upset bc Nicholson didn't pick up Saquon when he scored on that catch. I think that Collins gets a bad wrap in coverage, he's not great in coverage, but he's not awful either. He is elite around the line of scrimmage and I’d say average in coverage. You put those two together and you have an all-around good to very good safety. I remember Dalvin Cook catching a lot of screens and check downs from Kirk. I don't remember Collins being toasted by him in one on one coverage. Edited July 21, 2020 by turtle28 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 21 hours ago, naptownskinsfan said: @turtle28 I get your points, but I also see the point of these forums is to discuss things, not just in the future but the past. You have said a few things critical of personnel moves that have happened in the past more than once, and I've never used that against you, nor would I use it in the future. For me, two things stick out the most about Dan Snyder's tenure here as owner- bad hirings, and bad free agent signings. Those lists are endless. In my opinion, not only have we handed out the worst FA contract ever to Haynesworth, we have another FA contract that some view as top 10 worst in recent memory (Archuleta) as well as a history of overpaying for safeties in Archuleta and Collins. In my opinion, even though the signing is over and done with, we should still be free to criticize it because it is the organization not learning from mistakes of the past. We overpaid for a box safety, something that is losing value in the NFL. Not only did we overpay, we made him the highest paid safety at the time, and Collins just doesn't bring that kind of impact with his game. You can't compare Haynesworth, Archuleta & Collins IMO. Archuleta was a work out warrior who wasn't a good football player, that's just the truth of it. Hayes worth was a great player when he wanted to be but when he got his money he quit working hard, got fat and lazy and refused to do what the coaches wanted him to so, he showed little effort on for field. Landon Collins is the leader of our secondary and arguably our entire defense. He tries as hard or harder than everyone. He is a good football player and not just a work out warrior. Even if he makes a mistake, you’ll be damn sure that he's going to try his best to make up for that mistake. So, while we overpaid for Collins, at least we got a high a character leader who is elite at something (run D/tackling) and he at least tries hard to improve at the things he's not good and tries extremely hard in coverage and doesn't give up on plays. I also have to ask if we didn't have Collins, where would we be at safety? Who else could we have signed who would have been equivalent to him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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