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Best In Your Division?

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18 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

It’s almost impossible to eliminate Lamar Jackson opening up holes out of the equation. Lamar’s impact is A PART of the scheme, even if I don’t include him as a runner. Trying to say “Lamar” makes the RBs better is like saying Kyle Shanahan’s ZBS makes his RBs better. It does, but those SF running backs will still be playing in Shanahan scheme. They will still be tasked with producing in a Shanahan scheme, just like the Browns RBs will have to produce in Stefanski’s scheme and the Ravens RBs will have to produce in a Roman scheme.

There was a clear difference between Chubb running behind Georgia’s MBS and their ZBS, it wasn’t a knee injury thing. He was running just as hard his final season at Georgia as he’s been running for the Browns, he’s the same physical specimen. Sure the first season back, you could tell a noticeable difference in his running style. But his senior season he was the same guy as he is now, which still isn’t quite the same level of back that he was/could have been prior to his injury... where he seemed to have a little more foot quickness and balance. But considering his injury, he’s still quite the stud. Anyways, let me get back on track before my man crush activates. Point of the matter is in college Georgia starting to implement a lot more inside zone concepts for that 2016 season vs the power man. I can’t recall exactly from the pre-draft time period but Chubb averaged something like 6.3 YPC running in man vs something like 5.1 YPC running behind zone (not sure how to find the exact numbers). Whereas Michel was something ridiculous like 8 YPC behind zone and like 5.3 YPC behind man. Don’t quote me on any of these exact numbers, I just recall it was in some sort of tweet, graphic, or YouTube video from that time period. Either way my point is simply that Chubb is more natural in a power scheme. Chubb runs similar to Jamal Lewis in that they have a lot of power and very good long speed, but they aren’t possessed of the hip flexibility, fluidity, and foot quickness that makes for an ideal zone scheme back. I didn’t say he couldn’t do it. He could do it in college. I’m saying I question if its the best use of his skill set and if it might not make him a less efficient runner. I don’t think the new scheme will have any adverse impact on Kareem Hunt, I think he’s got the kind of feet and flexibility to thrive in that system.

The first part is a fair point. I do typically err on the side of the proven talent. This is part of the reason why I went back and forth with this decision but ultimately decided to go with Baltimore. In terms of the productive depth when Ingram went down, the very next game Gus rushed for 130 yds on 21 carries against the Steelers top 10 defense in what was a must win game for them, where they knew we needed to rush for enough yards to break the team rushing record... they knew what we were going to do and with Gus as the main guy we were still able to do it. In his past two seasons Gus Edwards has started 7 games; the last 6 games of 2018 and week 17 last season, in those games he’s averaged 95.6 YPG on 5.31 YPC. There is more than enough evidence to suggest that he could carry the load in the event of injury to both Dobbins and Ingram. There’s a stark difference between your 3rd best RB who can put up those numbers with and without Lamar Jackson in the lineup and the 3rd string back of a team that put up less than 100 yds rushing on something like 3.8 YPC. Now a new system could help, but as it stands there’s a firm difference in reliability.

That is true, it probably isn’t fair of me to assume Dobbins will be an impact player from the jump, but its the RB position. It’s not as if we’re talking about a position that historically takes a longer time to register an impact such as CB or IDL or something. If a RB isn’t a stud by year two, he’s probably never going to be that guy. So while I find your point very fair here and its why I cant fault the people taking the Browns RBs over the Ravens here, I also don’t think its very unreasonable to project RB talent. The way I see it Dobbins will likely be sort of a 2a/2b situation with Gus Edwards so I find their combined impact to be relevant when comparing these backfields.

What’s more I didn’t say he’s going to be a top 3-5 RB this season, otherwise I would easily take our backfield over the Browns because if Chubb and Dobbins cancel each other out and Ingram and Hunt cancel each other out, you’re left with Gus and Hill and a pro bowl FB in Patrick Ricard. That said, do I think JKD is a top 5 RB within the next two seasons? Absolutely. Similar to how once Chubb finally started to be trusted in the backfield he took off his rookie season and hasn’t looked back, I project similar with Dobbins... only in a deeper backfield. So his version of “taking off” might be only 650-750 YFS but it’ll be setting him up for huge success the following season as “the guy”.

In terms of OSU, they ran both zone and man blocking concepts during his tenure there. Dobbins was effective in gap plays and the outside zone plays. So as a fan of the team, I’m not sure where you got the notion that they didn’t run man blocking concepts there and that they ONLY run zone. In 2019 an exclusive blocking scheme that doesn’t have any variations would be nearly asinine.

RB receiving ability isn’t just about looking at the stat sheet, but also about projecting traits. Just like prior to the Ravens, Rutgers didn’t really utilize Ray Rice as a receiving option, but then he became a huge receiving option with the Ravens because of his fluidity in the open field. Dobbins is someone you want to get into space against a LB and let him work, he’s going to be given plenty of outlet opportunities in the Ravens scheme because of the traits he brings to the table. It’ll keep Lamar from having to do as much damage in space and protect him a bit more by virtue of getting a guy who can pick up a similar amount of yards but who plays a position that is built for that type of damage.

Lastly, Chubb is indeed a top shelf back. Currently the Ravens don’t have someone on that level, but my argument doesn’t rely on any of them having to be that. The number of RBs in that top 10-50 range, along with a pro bowl FB added to the backfield is my argument for the Ravens backfield being the one to bank on being the most productive again in 2020 as in 2019.

You bring up '18 with the linked 11W site. By the way, I think that is a great site for tOSU info. You look at JK Dobbins 3 seasons. 2017 and 2019, tOSU had a rushing QB and they ran a lot more zone runs to take advantage of that. '18, they ran more manbconcepts because they had a pocket passer in Haskins. In ;18, tOSU didnt have that great of a rushing attack. They threw the ball a lot but when they did run it, they werent nearly as lethal with it like the years prior. You now look at his season last year, he had an absolute stud to work off of in Fields, who like Candy said, might go down as the best QB in tOSU history. They might be able to recreate that in the NFL with Jackson as his QB but he has to prove it first. Yeah tOSU did run some gap schemes, you need to, so you can have counter plays and traps, but they arent killing teams with dives/blasts/power run .You need some gap schemes cause you need to keep defenses honest. tOSU ran a majority of zone schemes but when teams want so over play a zone scheme and try and blitz a zone scheme, you run a gap scheme and you can make a team pay for it. Dobbins had a majority of his success running zone. The one season they tried to run more man schemes cause they dont have a mobile QB, Dobbins has a down season. 


"What’s more I didn’t say he’s going to be a top 3-5 RB this season", well you literally said "I view Chubb and JKD to be similarly talented". If your saying he is as talent as Chubb, you are saying he is going to be on the same level as Chubb. Also I missed this the first time " That said Hunt is a back that I would have similarly ranked as Mark Ingram as a talent overall." I would not say Ingram is similar talent wise to Hunt at all. At no point has Ingram ever been viewed as a top5 back. Hunt doesnt get suspended in '18, he was on pace for 1700+ all purpose yards and 20 TDs and you cant just say that was because of Mahomes cause the year prior he had 1700+ all purpose yards and 11TDs with Smith as QB. Dude was on track to position himself as the best back in the NFL at least top3. Ingram has never been in that position. It took him 7seasons or so to put up numbers Hunt put up his rookie year. Hunt is by far a more talented back than  Ingram. Ingram is a very good back and he compliments Jackson very well in that scheme as that down hill runner but he is no where near the complete back Hunt is. Sorry.. Chubb and Hunt would easily be the #1 back. 

" Chubb finally started to be trusted in the backfield he took off his rookie season and hasn’t looked back," It wasnt about Trust, it was about Hue Jackson refusing to use him. Early on in the season, Chubb did plenty to deserve more carries. Browns fans were yelling for Chubb to get more carries but Hue still ran Carlos Hyde. A lot of Browns fans believe the reason Hyde was trade so it would force Hue to use Nick Chubb. Once Chubb became the starter because Hyde was traded, thats when he took over. It wasnt about trust, it was about Hue being a moron.

Im sorry, we put the RBs you are talking about in a pool, Chubb, Hunt, Ingram, Edwards, Gus, and etc. Chubb and Hunt are going to be #1 and #2 and its not even close. Those 2 are in their own tier. When they are by far and away better than everyone else, the depth doesnt really matter. Now say it was close. Then Depth could be a true difference maker but no one is going to chose the Ravens 4RBs over the Browns 2RBs. 

Edited by buno67

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5 hours ago, buno67 said:

You bring up '18 with the linked 11W site. By the way, I think that is a great site for tOSU info. You look at JK Dobbins 3 seasons. 2017 and 2019, tOSU had a rushing QB and they ran a lot more zone runs to take advantage of that. '18, they ran more manbconcepts because they had a pocket passer in Haskins. In ;18, tOSU didnt have that great of a rushing attack. They threw the ball a lot but when they did run it, they werent nearly as lethal with it like the years prior. You now look at his season last year, he had an absolute stud to work off of in Fields, who like Candy said, might go down as the best QB in tOSU history. They might be able to recreate that in the NFL with Jackson as his QB but he has to prove it first. Yeah tOSU did run some gap schemes, you need to, so you can have counter plays and traps, but they arent killing teams with dives/blasts/power run .You need some gap schemes cause you need to keep defenses honest. tOSU ran a majority of zone schemes but when teams want so over play a zone scheme and try and blitz a zone scheme, you run a gap scheme and you can make a team pay for it. Dobbins had a majority of his success running zone. The one season they tried to run more man schemes cause they dont have a mobile QB, Dobbins has a down season. 

You said Dobbins didn’t run man concepts. Teams don’t draft a season, they draft a prospect. I posted the link of 2018 because prior to the 2019 season based on what I saw from Dobbins in 2017 and 2018 I had him as the best back in the class and knew I had watching man concepts on his game tape. So you saying otherwise was almost akin to calling me dishonest. Either way I suppose we’re on the same page here now. He ran both man and zone concepts while at Ohio St.

5 hours ago, buno67 said:

"What’s more I didn’t say he’s going to be a top 3-5 RB this season", well you literally said "I view Chubb and JKD to be similarly talented". If your saying he is as talent as Chubb, you are saying he is going to be on the same level as Chubb.

Talent does not equal production as production is reliant upon opportunity. I know enough about John Harbaugh to know that Dobbins isn’t going to come in and be handed the keys to the backfield regardless of talent. So why would I claim that Dobbins will put up top 3-5 RB production this season if I don’t believe he will see the opportunity to post that kind of production??? Saying talent should automatically equal production makes no sense, that would be like saying that Mahomes isn’t more talented than Matt Ryan because he has worse career production; clearly Mahomes hasn’t had the same opportunity to produce as much. Thus is JKD comes in and puts up 700 yds rushing on 6 YPC and 8 TDs... that doesn’t mean he’s not similarly TALENTED to Nick Chubb, even though Chubb will likely produce far more because he has the opportunity to do so.

5 hours ago, buno67 said:

" Chubb finally started to be trusted in the backfield he took off his rookie season and hasn’t looked back," It wasnt about Trust, it was about Hue Jackson refusing to use him. Early on in the season, Chubb did plenty to deserve more carries. Browns fans were yelling for Chubb to get more carries but Hue still ran Carlos Hyde. A lot of Browns fans believe the reason Hyde was trade so it would force Hue to use Nick Chubb. Once Chubb became the starter because Hyde was traded, thats when he took over. It wasnt about trust, it was about Hue being a moron.

Hue isn’t the first coach to not play a talented player right away just FYI. Marvin Lewis and John Harbaugh were two coaches off the top who similarly liked their rookies to “overly earn it”. Hue coached on both of those staffs so it’s no surprise that he was overly stubborn when it came to not letting young talent rise to the top sooner rather than later.

Either way you simply ignored the context of my words to seemingly lament about Hue’s inadequacy where it wasn’t relevant. Hue didn’t initially play Chubb as much and give him those early opportunities was the point.

Hue obviously felt like he couldn’t TRUST Chubb to perform, otherwise he would’ve... trusted Chubb to perform. I highly doubt Hue talked to himself and said, “I’m such an idiot that I should intentionally not start Chubb to validate to myself my own stupidity. Smart.”

Either way the point is clear, Chubb wasn’t provided the opportunity to truly show his top 5 RB ability early as a rookie. When given opportunities, he thrived. Which was relevant to my point about Dobbins being IMO similarly talented to Chubb, even if his opportunities will likely be heavily limited.

5 hours ago, buno67 said:

That said Hunt is a back that I would have similarly ranked as Mark Ingram as a talent overall." I would not say Ingram is similar talent wise to Hunt at all. At no point has Ingram ever been viewed as a top5 back. Hunt doesnt get suspended in '18, he was on pace for 1700+ all purpose yards and 20 TDs and you cant just say that was because of Mahomes cause the year prior he had 1700+ all purpose yards and 11TDs with Smith as QB. Dude was on track to position himself as the best back in the NFL at least top3. Ingram has never been in that position. It took him 7seasons or so to put up numbers Hunt put up his rookie year. Hunt is by far a more talented back than  Ingram. Ingram is a very good back and he compliments Jackson very well in that scheme as that down hill runner but he is no where near the complete back Hunt is. Sorry.. Chubb and Hunt would easily be the #1 back. 

It’s irrelevant when it took Mark Ingram to hit his stride, he eventually did it. Also Kareem Hunt being viewed as a top 5 back  came on an Andy Reid offense. Hunt went from 4.7 YPC in KC down to 4.2 in Cleveland... and with Chubb average above 5 YPC it’s not as if it’s not possible to be that productive. Conversely Ingram was above 5 YPC last season and just had a probowl season. Hunt wouldn’t be the first player that Andy Reid inflated their value. So is Hunt talented, sure, but do I think Ingram as the clear guy in the backfield within an Andy Reid offense couldn’t have put forth similar production? Absolutely I think he could have. Based on talent, I don’t see much difference between Hunt and Ingram... I’d have both as guys that are in that top 15-20 talent range of backs, but I don’t view either as elite and never did.

5 hours ago, buno67 said:

Im sorry, we put the RBs you are talking about in a pool, Chubb, Hunt, Ingram, Edwards, Gus, and etc. Chubb and Hunt are going to be #1 and #2 and its not even close. Those 2 are in their own tier. When they are by far and away better than everyone else, the depth doesnt really matter. Now say it was close. Then Depth could be a true difference maker but no one is going to chose the Ravens 4RBs over the Browns 2RBs. 

I’m sure if you put them in a pool that’s how it would go. As for me, I’m going Ingram above Hunt. Even considering age I know Ingram is a tremendous locker room leader that’s going to help get my young guys playing at a high level, while conversely Kareem Hunt is a known multi incident character offender. I see similar talent so I side with leadership and high character over youth and character concerns.

I would certainly take Chubb as my #1 pick however, you do have that right. But given a draft between those options I would go:

1. Chubb 2. Dobbins 3. Ingram 4. Hunt 5. Ricard 6. Gus 7. Justice 8-11. The Browns RBs.

You would draft differently. Cool beans. But there’s a reason that Kansas City dumped Hunt, they couldn’t trust him off the field to stay on the field. 3 incidents in the span of a few months while in the NFL, lying to the team about issues. I easily take Ingram in a draft over Hunt.

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