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10 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

KC's offense was 4th best in the league in 2017, and that was before they added Sammy Watkins in 2018 with Mahomes. 

Losing Kareem Hunt had a much bigger impact than gaining Sammy.   He carried much of the load for us that year.   Not sitting here trying to say Mahomes doesn’t have more weapons,  but he definitely is over exaggerating if he thinks Mahomes only slightly makes them better.   Rotating chairs at RB and OL all season, his ability to keep plays alive and put the ball in areas hardly anyone else can definitely help others.  

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2 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

Lamar rested for 5 fourth quarters and took off the week 17 game. 

So Lamar missed 2.25 games, and Mahomes missed 2.5 games in 2019. Not a big difference. 

I'd rather have the guy who misses time because he's blowing the other team out than the guy with the balky knee. 

I'd rather have the guy who can throw pinpoint passes no look with his offhand 60 yards....

Lamar is great until the playoffs come, then he shrivels up and starts erratically chucking the ball out of bounds left and right. The reality is Lamar was never going to juke everyone out of their socks in the playoffs en route to the chip. It's the playoffs. And this is a mans game. You gotta throw the ball to win in the playoffs, there's no other way. Therefore Mahomes is the guy you want.

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19 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

Now factor in coaching and supporting cast. 

Both have an ideal supporting cast and coaching staff to enable their particular talents. Baltimore may not have the most conventional support in place for Jackson, but it's absolutely ideal for his particular talents and style of play. He has a coaching staff willing and able to structure a non-conventional offense around him that utilizes his running ability. He has a great OL and a strong stable of backs to help drive success in those plays, and a deep roster of TEs that also support that run heavy style of play. He doesn't have the best WRs, but that's less important for his play style than it is for Mahomes. Just as Mahomes having some holes on the interior line and an underwhelming stable of RBs is less significant to his quality of play. Mahomes can play his game without a great run game to back him up. Jackson can play his game without a strong crew of WRs. The reverse, for each, is not nearly as true. Both have a coaching staff and supporting cast that hugely enables what they want to do and what they can do. That should not detract from the ridiculous heights that both have reached, though. Trying to make it detract from Mahomes but not Jackson is biased, and silly.

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3 minutes ago, samsel23 said:

Losing Kareem Hunt had a much bigger impact than gaining Sammy.   He carried much of the load for us that year.   Not sitting here trying to say Mahomes doesn’t have more weapons,  but he definitely is over exaggerating if he thinks Mahomes only slightly makes them better.   Rotating chairs at RB and OL all season, his ability to keep plays alive and put the ball in areas hardly anyone else can definitely help others.  

I agree. From a Ravens perspective, though, the Chiefs have 3 targets that are superior to our best receiving threat in Hill, Watkins, and Kelce. Your top 3 are all better than our best. 

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7 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

Lamar rested for 5 fourth quarters and took off the week 17 game. 

So Lamar missed 2.25 games, and Mahomes missed 2.5 games in 2019. Not a big difference. 

I'd rather have the guy who misses time because he's blowing the other team out than the guy with the balky knee. 

Wacky's point was that neither guy is going to be putting up offensive seasons like those consistently. I know Lamar missed time, but that isn't relevant to that point because either way, Lamar has one season that great. My point is that Mahomes actually has a second one that's close to that 3+ points per drive mark, it just sunk because Moore was a good bit less efficient than Mahomes. Lamar's missed time has nothing to do with that point. Whether Lamar had one season at 3.09 or one season at higher than that, it's still one season.

Here was the line in his post I was countering, since you missed the specific point:

Quote

3.25 or 3.09. I don't think EITHER Mahomes or Lamar will be close to regularly putting up offenses like that.

Mahomes has now hit 3.25, and 2.89. Both pretty close to that 3+ mark.

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3 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

I agree. From a Ravens perspective, though, the Chiefs have 3 targets that are superior to our best receiving threat in Hill, Watkins, and Kelce. Your top 3 are all better than our best. 

True,  won’t argue our receiving options aren’t better but it’s comparing two different offenses.   We have yet to see how adding a good WR will affect Lamar,  it could elevate him or not do a whole lot.  The same was same for Cam, and when he got better playmakers it didn’t change a whole lot,  he continued playing the same game.    Still a terrifying offense for defenses to stop,  but just plugging a top WR on paper doesn’t always work.. the Ravens will need to adjust the offense to fit that in. And if they do how much does that take away from Lamar’s spectacular solo plays? 

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14 minutes ago, Jakuvious said:

Both have an ideal supporting cast and coaching staff to enable their particular talents. Baltimore may not have the most conventional support in place for Jackson, but it's absolutely ideal for his particular talents and style of play. He has a coaching staff willing and able to structure a non-conventional offense around him that utilizes his running ability. He has a great OL and a strong stable of backs to help drive success in those plays, and a deep roster of TEs that also support that run heavy style of play. He doesn't have the best WRs, but that's less important for his play style than it is for Mahomes. Just as Mahomes having some holes on the interior line and an underwhelming stable of RBs is less significant to his quality of play. Mahomes can play his game without a great run game to back him up. Jackson can play his game without a strong crew of WRs. The reverse, for each, is not nearly as true. Both have a coaching staff and supporting cast that hugely enables what they want to do and what they can do. That should not detract from the ridiculous heights that both have reached, though. Trying to make it detract from Mahomes but not Jackson is biased, and silly.

I'd say that's an understatement. Hollywood Brown is talented but couldn't practice all last year due to his lisfranc recovery. Aside from that, its Snead, Seth Roberts, Boykin. With Brown injured, it was a bottom 5 unit for sure. 

I agree that WRs is less important for the Ravens offense, but having a quality WR who can consistently get open would do wonders opening up the offense.  I think people assume that Lamar just doesn't throw deep and outside the numbers. But maybe he will if he has a WR who can run quality routes out there, he'll throw it more. 

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46 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

I'd say that's an understatement. Hollywood Brown is talented but couldn't practice all last year due to his lisfranc recovery. Aside from that, its Snead, Seth Roberts, Boykin. With Brown injured, it was a bottom 5 unit for sure. 

I agree that WRs is less important for the Ravens offense, but having a quality WR who can consistently get open would do wonders opening up the offense.  I think people assume that Lamar just doesn't throw deep and outside the numbers. But maybe he will if he has a WR who can run quality routes out there, he'll throw it more. 

 And the left side of our OL last year was a trio of Cleveland Browns outcasts.

Both supporting casts could still be better. But the holes in each hold Jackson and Mahomes both back minimally, while the strengths in each accent what each are best at and most want to do. I'm sure Jackson could do even better with someone better than Willie Snead starting at WR. I'm also sure Mahomes could've done better with someone better than Cam Erving at LT. Maybe a better WR helps the Ravens passing game, but also leads to Jackson running less. Maybe a better rushing game helps KC's offense, but also drops Mahomes bulk passing. We could go around in circles with points like that. But the overall point remains. Both have overall excellent supporting casts for their particular skillsets and playstyles.

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If the Ravens don't get a #1 WR they won't win it all. They need "that guy" at WR. Imagine if they got Hopkins when the Texans were giving him away. Texans wouldn't send him to an AFC contender but they need somebody. Hollywood is a nice little player but he's not "that guy."

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1 hour ago, Jakuvious said:

 And the left side of our OL last year was a trio of Cleveland Browns outcasts.

Both supporting casts could still be better. But the holes in each hold Jackson and Mahomes both back minimally, while the strengths in each accent what each are best at and most want to do. I'm sure Jackson could do even better with someone better than Willie Snead starting at WR. I'm also sure Mahomes could've done better with someone better than Cam Erving at LT. Maybe a better WR helps the Ravens passing game, but also leads to Jackson running less. Maybe a better rushing game helps KC's offense, but also drops Mahomes bulk passing. We could go around in circles with points like that. But the overall point remains. Both have overall excellent supporting casts for their particular skillsets and playstyles.

Yes we are on the same page. But I'd say the difference is that if you plug an average QB in the Chiefs offense, it is still a top 5 offense (see Alex Smith in 2017). Whereas if you put an average QB in the Ravens offense, it is a mediocre offense at best. The players complement Lamar well, but they are not really exceptional. A scrub like Matt Moore can come in the Chiefs offense and complete 65%, throw 4/0 TD/INT and average 270 yards a game.  

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2 minutes ago, Kirill said:

If the Ravens don't get a #1 WR they won't win it all. They need "that guy" at WR. Imagine if they got Hopkins when the Texans were giving him away. Texans wouldn't send him to an AFC contender but they need somebody. Hollywood is a nice little player but he's not "that guy."

Hollywood's cousin is coming. Just gotta wait 8 games. 

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One thing that also has to be considered is that Mahomes is capable of putting up 450 yards of offense even on days when he can’t run. That’s what happened when KC visited Tennessee. 36/50 446 yards, 3/0. All by an immobile Mahomes.

I don’t think Jackson could put up that much offense with such limited mobility. 

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37 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

But I'd say the difference is that if you plug an average QB in the Chiefs offense, it is still a top 5 offense (see Alex Smith in 2017)

Not going against your point because I think the Chiefs are a talented team, but there’s a pretty major omission from that 2017 team that’s no longer in KC...

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1 hour ago, Yin-Yang said:

Not going against your point because I think the Chiefs are a talented team, but there’s a pretty major omission from that 2017 team that’s no longer in KC...

Who, the backup RB in Cleveland?

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1 minute ago, AngusMcFife said:

Who, the backup RB in Cleveland?

no i meant albert wilson

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