NFLN Top 100 Players of 2020

[VanS]

Just now, Yin-Yang said:

So Trent Dilfer is the driving force behind the 2000 Ravens SB run? And the most important reason they made the playoffs?

Come on now.  Stop being so disrespectful.  Josh Allen is an elite playmaker who led all QBs in rushing TDs, game-winning drives, and comeback victories in 2019.  There's a reason he was voted by his peers in the Top 100.  And he doesn't have Jamal Lewis or Shannon Sharpe playing alongside him.  

The point I am making isn't that every QB is the main driving force.  My point is when a QB is performing like Josh Allen especially given the degree of difficulty he faces given the lack of talent around him on offense then he is the driving force.

[Vorsutus]

1 hour ago, VanS said:

LOL @ going back a decade to make this point.  

You can cherry pick individual games all you want.  At the end of the day one guy took an unheralded program to becoming nationally relevant while the other didn't.  Lamar has a history of being transformative.  That was the point. 

Agreed. As a canes fan I would never mention the 2001 canes being possibly the best college team ever to try and talk about them now. God I miss how good they were 😞

[Soko]

7 minutes ago, VanS said:

Come on now.  Stop being so disrespectful.  Josh Allen is an elite playmaker who led all QBs in rushing TDs, game-winning drives, and comeback victories in 2019.  There's a reason he was voted by his peers in the Top 100.  And he doesn't have Jamal Lewis or Shannon Sharpe playing alongside him. 

“I give the most credit to the guy doing the most important job”

Quote

The point I am making isn't that every QB is the main driving force.  My point is when a QB is performing like Josh Allen especially given the degree of difficulty he faces given the lack of talent around him on offense then he is the driving force.

How can he be the driving force or be claimed as an elite playmaker on an offense that is below average in every category? How can the offense or any single offensive player get credit for a playoff run when they were carried by an elite defense? How can you give credit to the QB for a GWD when every single drive was followed by a defensive turnover or special teams turnover? How can you give Josh Allen credit for extending drives when they were bad at it all season? You can’t make sense of any of it. All you can say is the offense wasn’t that talented, therefore Josh Allen = elite playmaker that was the main reason they made the playoffs. Doesn’t make sense. It’s not like he even had a year like Tannehill.

Edited August 3, 2020 by Yin-Yang

[Kip Smithers]

8 hours ago, wackywabbit said:

Ok. I could deep dive and probably pull up numbers that say the 19 Ravens played a stronger defensive slate and/or spent more drives resting, but that isn't the point I want to make. Mahomes 18 may have been better than Jackson's 19. There were certainly different kinds of seasons. Apart from that...

3.25 or 3.09. I don't think EITHER Mahomes or Lamar will be close to regularly putting up offenses like that. Your statement that Lamar didn't play at Mahomes level last year doesn't make sense because Mahomes didn't play at your mythical Mahomes level.

The perception of Mahomes now is where Aaron Rodgers was in 2011. That was the one time Rodgers broke the 3 PPD barrier and he was coming off a great SB run. It makes no sense in hindsight to call that Rodgers level, does it?

Never did I say they would. And what are those mythical Mahomes level you’re referring too? It’s just varying levels of greatness. Lamar had an awesome season, I just think Mahomes was a step above all things considered. 

[AngusMcFife]

48 minutes ago, Kip Smithers said:

Never did I say they would. And what are those mythical Mahomes level you’re referring too? It’s just varying levels of greatness. Lamar had an awesome season, I just think Mahomes was a step above all things considered. 

A step above. Considering he had elite offensive coaching and playmakers, while Lamar had neither. Seems like that step was boosted by people other than Mahomes. 

[AngusMcFife]

1 hour ago, Archimedes said:

The Chiefs offensive DVOA in Smith’s last year to Mahomes first year went from 15.9% to 34.2% and averaged 10 more points per game. The 2017 Chiefs scored 21 points against the 17th ranked scoring defense in their lone playoff game. The 2018 Chiefs AVERAGED 31 points per game in the playoffs against two top 10 scoring defenses.

Yes, the Chiefs went from the 4th best offense in the league to the best from 2017 to 2018. 

Meanwhile, the Ravens went from

2017: -4.5%, 21st in the league
2018: 0.9%, 15th (Transition year, Flacco started 9 games, Lamar inserted as rookie)
2019: 27.7% (32% weighted), 1st in the league

So while Mahomes improved the team by 18.3%, Lamar improved the Ravens by 32.2%. 

[Archimedes]

1 hour ago, AngusMcFife said:

Yes, the Chiefs went from the 4th best offense in the league to the best from 2017 to 2018. 

Meanwhile, the Ravens went from

2017: -4.5%, 21st in the league
2018: 0.9%, 15th (Transition year, Flacco started 9 games, Lamar inserted as rookie)
2019: 27.7% (32% weighted), 1st in the league

So while Mahomes improved the team by 18.3%, Lamar improved the Ravens by 32.2%. 

Imagine that, you don’t have a real counter to the Alex Smith/Mahomes stats, so you give me, they went from 4th to 1st! Meanwhile, you’re jumping ahead 2 years to try and play up Lamar’s impact, as if the supporting didn’t change all in that time. 

[Archimedes]

1 hour ago, AngusMcFife said:

Yes, the Chiefs went from the 4th best offense in the league to the best from 2017 to 2018. 

Meanwhile, the Ravens went from

2017: -4.5%, 21st in the league
2018: 0.9%, 15th (Transition year, Flacco started 9 games, Lamar inserted as rookie)
2019: 27.7% (32% weighted), 1st in the league

So while Mahomes improved the team by 18.3%, Lamar improved the Ravens by 32.2%. 

So I went back and checked. Besides Lamar, Only 2 of the Ravens offensive starters from the 2019 team started more than 2 games in 2017... By all means though, don’t let facts interrupt you continuing with your narrative of how Lamar single handedly drug the Ravens from mediocrity to untold heights.

[AngusMcFife]

1 hour ago, Archimedes said:

Imagine that, you don’t have a real counter to the Alex Smith/Mahomes stats, so you give me, they went from 4th to 1st! Meanwhile, you’re jumping ahead 2 years to try and play up Lamar’s impact, as if the supporting didn’t change all in that time. 

If you want to compare 2018 to 2019, that's fine. Ravens improve by 26.8%, still whooping Mahomes *** and it isn't even close. 

And if you want to compare rookie years, that's fine too. Lamar leads his team to the playoffs, while Mahomes couldn't beat out a mediocre stiff like Alex Smith for meaningful snaps all season. 

[AngusMcFife]

1 hour ago, Archimedes said:

So I went back and checked. Besides Lamar, Only 2 of the Ravens offensive starters from the 2019 team started more than 2 games in 2017... By all means though, don’t let facts interrupt you continuing with your narrative of how Lamar single handedly drug the Ravens from mediocrity to untold heights.

You are making a fool of yourself. The 2017 Ravens WRs (Mike Wallace, Perriman, Maclin) were far superior to the 2019 corps. Boyle was still at TE, and Watson was still good there too. Stanley at LT. Jensen was a superior C compared to Skura/Mekari (Skura was at RG in 2017).

If you are going to make arguments about a team, it's good to first have some knowledge of their players and abilities. 

[Archimedes]

17 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

If you want to compare 2018 to 2019, that's fine. Ravens improve by 26.8%, still whooping Mahomes *** and it isn't even close. 

And if you want to compare rookie years, that's fine too. Lamar leads his team to the playoffs, while Mahomes couldn't beat out a mediocre stiff like Alex Smith for meaningful snaps all season. 

Omg we can’t compare Mahomes 2nd best year to Lamar’s 2nd best year! That cherry picking! But let’s compare their rookie years! When Mahomes was sitting behind a guy who was statistically a top 5 QB and was never meant to start!

Are you honestly delusional enough to believe that Mahomes wouldn’t have supplanted Flacco if he were on that same Ravens team? Are you that delusional that you think Lamar would have beat out Alex on the Chiefs?? Give me a break 🙄

Edited August 3, 2020 by Archimedes

[Archimedes]

8 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

You are making a fool of yourself. The 2017 Ravens WRs (Mike Wallace, Perriman, Maclin) were far superior to the 2019 corps. Boyle was still at TE, and Watson was still good there too. Stanley at LT. Jensen was a superior C compared to Skura/Mekari (Skura was at RG in 2017).

If you are going to make arguments about a team, it's good to first have some knowledge of their players and abilities. 

Easy to make an argument when all you have to do is create a narrative in your head and then form your entire basis around that. 
 

Easy for you that is, hard to have any kind of meaningful debate for anyone against you though...

[diamondbull424]

3 hours ago, AngusMcFife said:

Yes, the Chiefs went from the 4th best offense in the league to the best from 2017 to 2018. 

Meanwhile, the Ravens went from

2017: -4.5%, 21st in the league
2018: 0.9%, 15th (Transition year, Flacco started 9 games, Lamar inserted as rookie)
2019: 27.7% (32% weighted), 1st in the league

So while Mahomes improved the team by 18.3%, Lamar improved the Ravens by 32.2%. 

You probably shouldn’t waste your time on this guy, he will never admit when he’s legitimately wrong.

He literally said the Ravens prior to Lamar wasn’t a mediocre offense, which is what I called him out on and which is what got me involved in this thread.

He then would proceed to posted stats of them indeed being a mediocre offense, while trying to use those stats to argue that they weren’t a mediocre offense. 😂

There’s literally no point, he can’t even understand the stats that HE posts. No way he’s going to be able to digest the stats that YOU post. 😆

[Archimedes]

1 minute ago, diamondbull424 said:

You probably shouldn’t waste your time on this guy, he will never admit when he’s legitimately wrong.

He literally said the Ravens prior to Lamar wasn’t a mediocre offense, which is what I called him out on and which is what got me involved in this thread.

He then would proceed to posted stats of them indeed being a mediocre offense, while trying to use those stats to argue that they weren’t a mediocre offense. 😂

There’s literally no point, he can’t even understand the stats that HE posts. No way he’s going to be able to digest the stats that YOU post. 😆

That’s actually not what I said, but since you don’t understand stats, it doesn’t surprise me that you also lack reading comprehension.

But at least you know how to use the smiley emoji!!

[diamondbull424]

11 hours ago, Jakuvious said:

 And the left side of our OL last year was a trio of Cleveland Browns outcasts.

Both supporting casts could still be better. But the holes in each hold Jackson and Mahomes both back minimally, while the strengths in each accent what each are best at and most want to do. I'm sure Jackson could do even better with someone better than Willie Snead starting at WR. I'm also sure Mahomes could've done better with someone better than Cam Erving at LT. Maybe a better WR helps the Ravens passing game, but also leads to Jackson running less. Maybe a better rushing game helps KC's offense, but also drops Mahomes bulk passing. We could go around in circles with points like that. But the overall point remains. Both have overall excellent supporting casts for their particular skillsets and playstyles.

I don’t disagree with your points at all, however what I think needs to be factored in is that Lamar ONLY has one full season starting to go off of in terms of that 3.0 caliber offense. We do know that since Lamar has been a starter the Ravens rushing attack has averaged over 200 ypg. Such capability on a year to year basis is something that presents a high possibility of, similar to Mahomes, allowing him to be close to that 3.0 offensively. But the reality of @wackywabbit argument is that neither has hit that level twice yet... regardless of the reasons. Be it injury or only starting 7 games in their rookie season.

Which brings me to my point, it’s very fair to say that Mahomes is superior to Lamar. But someone holding a counterpoint where they would take Lamar over Mahomes isn’t some deep dive into hysteria. Based off of everything we’ve seen CURRENTLY sure Mahomes should have the #1 claim.

But if an NFL player decides... “Mahomes has more help” and that led to him winning a ring or “Mahomes is just more experienced” and that let his talent better show in the playoffs or whatever reason... there are logical reasons as to how someone COULD have Lamar above Mahomes.

It’s not as though we’re legitimately trying to compare Lamar Jackson to Josh Rosen or Mitch Trubisky. With as much as Lamar has accomplished does it mean he’s suddenly beyond comparison to other young players such as Deshaun Watson or Kyler Murray? If someone said they’d rather have Murray I don’t agree, but it’s not necessarily a fraudulent line of thought. Same with choosing Watson. There are legitimate reasons for that, regardless of if Lamar wins a ring. Mahomes just won a ring and that affords him benefits, but he’s not beyond minor flaws that might lead someone to choose another player as “better”.